I've offered to publicly debate this one and I can't do much more than that. This thread is not the best means of conducting this debate for several reasons. I'm quite happy to take on the netball team in the debate "Is the netball team's nude photo pornographic: Yes or No?" in person. [Now that would be an interesting meeting!]

Sheikh, excuse my ignorance but what are the four letters for?

Post Scriptum...

[got a couple of spare mins]

To "ecclescake": you are not an "impartial observer" as you claimed in your last comment; it is very clear from your comments that you are partial for you have taken the opposite view to me. And pornography is not a subjective matter; there is a clear and objective standard by which to discern what is and isn't pornographic.

To sheikh: these silly games of postmodernist anti-rational pseudo-intellectualism do you no credit. There is a difference between clever and wise you know. Postmodernist rationalism thinks it is greater than Christian rationalism because postmodernism thinks it has put Christianity 'in a box' and that Christianity has been reduced to a mere speck within the universe of the secular mindset, however, on the contrary, the truth is rather different. Be careful that a master Christian thinker doesn't come along and beat you at your own game! And a further thing... do you expect anybody to take you seriously as a debater whilst you remain anonymous? Here I am, with my real identity, my name on the line, but all we get from you is "sheikh, prattle and droll." I'm afraid I've won the debate by default thus far on the basis of your anonymity alone, because in effect you haven't turned up in person yet, and if you don't show on the debating platform then you lose for sure.

There is a difference between clever and wise you know.

Richard Carvath
16.43pm, 7th century, Christendom
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Ricky,

Couldn’t agree more. However, it is neither wise nor clever to string ‘postmodernist (sic) anti-rational pseudo-intellectualism’ in a sentence that actually fails the acid test of being a sentence, by failing to mean anything at all.

By the way, post-modernist is not a single word. But you don't know what it means so it's probably too much for me to expect you to punctuate it correctly.

As the saying goes: A wise man must always be clever man. A clever man might not always be wise but will understand what it is to be so. Then there’s Richard Carvath...

OOYD

Come on sheikh, admit it... you're obviously OOYD.

Well done, Richard. You see, when you try really hard and take a couple of days to consider, you can arrive at the right answer. Go to the top of your (social) class...

I don't claim to be the brightest button in the box Sheikh - and I'm not - but clearly you think you've got great intellectual depth (or even [worse], possibly, that you are the depth).

As a Christian I'd like to be charitable towards you [although not so 'charitable' that I get my netball kit off], and also to all of my opponents on this comment-thread, and in particular to the students who posed for the calender. There's something much more important that needs to be said here than sheikh's insipid snipes over nothing (from the invisible wo/man that "sheikh" is).

Sheikh, you've managed to come up with:
OOYD.

Now I'd like to present to you all my four letter word:

LOVE.

I'd just like to extend LOVE to everybody here, and make it clear that whilst I am very much against the girls' action in posing naked for the calender, I nevertheless LOVE the girls themselves and I want what is best for them.

I should explain about this kind of LOVE that I'm talking about. In old Greek, this kind of LOVE was 'Agape' love. In 17th century English - such as in the 1611 'King James Bible' - the word that was used for this kind of LOVE was 'Charity'.

Unfortunately, since the 17th century our English word "charity" has come to mean some things which are very different to what the word actually means.

True LOVE = True Charity.

This kind of LOVE is the highest and noblest love possible, love which is unconditional and unfailing and self-sacrificing; this true LOVE loves the unlovely - and even loves its enemies.

This kind of LOVE is the love which exists in an excellent marriage, which brings me to my last point...

There are several reasons why I am so strongly opposed to the sort of behaviour which the students exhibited in posing for the calender, not least that it is bad for them.

I am not a prude or anti-sex or anti-nudity; sex in the right circumstances and for the right reasons is good and, in much the same way, nudity in the right circumstances and for the right reasons is good. The problem is when sex or nudity occurs in the wrong time and place and for the wrong reasons.

[Apart from for medical examination] the nudity of the student girls is not meant for all and sundry to ogle in calenders and newspapers and the internet. These young women should only be revealing themselves in this way to their husbands.

Sadly, the girls have given away something very precious and personal and there is a price to be paid for that. But when the girls discover true LOVE they will find forgiveness and also the proper purpose of their femininity.

Happy nude year!

Nudity is being with nature , it is so refreshing and there is nothing wrong being nude or a nudist .There should be more of it , as my next door neigbour ( who is a 83 year old lady )would say , its only skin .If there was more of it around children , there would be less trouble. Naturist looks like you and I and come from all walks of life. You will find it to be a relaxing lifestyle that is free of the daily stress we all experience. Naturist groups like naturistspace.org are looking for people who are open minded and want to enjoy the company of others of a like mind.

OOYD is not a word, Richard

If you love the girls Richard, you have a very funny way of showing it by calling them prostitutes.

Love is all about understanding and respect but you show neither. In fact using that definition you don't even love God.

You clearly respect the almighty but you display no understanding of what he represents.

And please stop using such aggressive language. Is there really any need for you to attack your fellow man/woman in such a unpleasant manner? Would God approve of the way you label people? Ask him in prayer, then ask his forgiveness. And then GROW UP!

Peace

This has been a difficult subject to address. It is never easy to strike the balance perfectly and speak hard truth in a loving manner. But the truth does need to be heard. It would've been unloving of me not to have challenged the students on this thread - and in the uncompromising manner in which I have. This is tough love in action. I do love the girls at the same time as I believe they really did need to hear the words 'prostitute' and 'pornography'. Of course what they do from here on is their business, but they have been warned, and warned by someone who genuinely wants what's best for them. My hatred is not for the girls themselves, but their action in posing for the calender. Believe me, I can find you plenty of women with horrific lives, and when you ask them how could they possibly have got sucked into something like that, time and again you'll hear something like, "I was a poor student, it seemed like easy money, it was only a topless photoshoot", or, "It was just a nude calender, I didn't really see it as porn" or, "They were so nice to me to start with, told me I could make it as a model."

To the nudist advocate... I don't agree with you about 'naturism' but you miss the obvious point that nudists engage in nudity in a private group where everybody wants to do that, but the nude calender photos have been put in the public domain where many people would rather not have had to see such imagery.

On LOVE... it's never easy to strike a perfect balance and speak necessary hard truth in a loving manner. This is tough love in action. I repeat that it is the girls' action in posing for the calender which I hate - but the girls themselves I love; I want the best for the girls and I know that does not mean nude calenders. I believe the girls did need to hear the truthful words "prostitute" and "pornography", not least as a warning which is in their own best interests.

I could bring forth so many women with horrific lives as witnesses who, when asked how they could possibly have got sucked into such appalling depravity, will time and again give answers such as, "I was a poor student, it seemed like easy money, it was just a topless photoshoot" or, "I did a nude calender, just as a giggle, I never thought of it as porn, but then..." or, "They were so nice to me at first, made me feel special, they told me I could make it as a famous model."

We are all praying for you Richard, for you to be shown the light and the righteous path away from your morally bankrupt views.

Richard, you attempt and fail to justify the unjustifiable and reading the slightly demoralised language you use in your last post it is apparent you are already only too aware you made a massive misjudgement in calling charitable girls prostitutes. It is to your credit that you have tacitly admitted as much this morning. Well done. Backing down is never an easy thing to do.

I second that. I've not been your biggest fan on here Richard, but I too respect a man who can see he is wrong and admits as much. Big respect to you for doing that so publicly on here.

I certainly don't agree with your interpretation of the significance of my comments today Simon!
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Apologies for the two similar posts which say much the same thing. There was a server error and so I 'resubmitted' not the same but a similar comment thinking that the first comment no longer existed.

Post Scriptum.

Since there are two of you now attempting to suggest that I have in some way changed my stance...

My position has not changed from the beginning. My position has always been like a coin with two sides, the sides being love and justice [or if truth is more readily understandable than 'justice', then truth].

What has occurred is a fuller revelation of my position over time - but my position has never changed. I started off showing you most obviously the justice side of my coin [but the love was always an integral part of that same coin], but latterly I have flipped my coin and shown you very overtly the other side as well - namely love.

And you should remember that an internet comments-thread is a very inadequate medium for such an emotionally and spiritually charged debate. I'm sure you'd all agree with me that a proper face-to-face [clothes on] discussion would be much better if we are serious about understanding the rationale, beliefs, motives and attitudes of each other.

I am one of the girls in the picture and I have been following this thread for a few days now. It is good to see that through reasoned debate, Richard's mind has been changed. It takes a big man to admit he is wrong.

I must say that for students you're sadly lacking in intellect if you don't see how my position has not changed at all.

I know Janey!! Who would have thought some good would have come out of this? Yet, out of the dark fog of despair comes Richard's about turn, to see the light of liberalism and liberty. The Lord does indeed work in mysterious ways. Again Richard a very big thumbs up for your change of heart.

Right minded people can see this calendar for what it is.

There is absolutely nothing titilating about these photgraphs...only to the sexually repressed.

Clearly the girls are stripping off (while keeping everything covered) in the hope that people will buy the calendar becuase they would never do the same.I know i wouldn't, I'd be too embarrassed.

Well done girls!

Dear oh dear sheikh; I'm afraid that you are exemplifying the phrase "casting pearls before swine" [and since it always needs to be said with you... you're not the one casting the pearls] Furthermore you don't know the meaning of the word "liberty"; your understanding of this concept is a [sadly common enough these days] perversion; what you think of as 'liberty' is actually 'licence'.

To John.Hervey... you talk of your embarrassment. Thanks for your unguarded admission of the truth. So you have a conscience (as we all do), and though you are confused (as many are these days), you're still at least prepared to admit that deep down you know the truth. The truth is the photos are pornographic and pornography is wrong (and that's why you're embarrassed).

In general to everybody, the incessant attempts to pretend that I've somehow changed my position are clearly pathetic and are not borne out by the evidence - as you all know full well.

Furthermore may I remind you that the anonymity of so many of you does your credibility a 'power of bad'. In particular I might point to the stripping students who've come on here to defend themselves anonymously and ask, "Why when you got your **** out for the lads won't you get your full, real name out for this discussion? Why won't you put your name to your pornography? Are you ashamed that you don't want your name associated with your calender photo?"

And lastly... I've offered real and full debate in person; we're all in Salford so such a suggestion is not pie in the sky; my offer is the sensible and mature thing to do rather than the low-level twittery of my opponents on this comment-thread.

Yes, congratulations girls not only have you raised a great deal of money for charity, you've won the debate on here and changed the opinion of Mr Carvath in the process. It's good to see reasoned argument can win the day. Well done all round

Yes girls, you have done NOTHING immoral and it is good Richard can see that now.

The irony that we have been holding a debate - albeit one that has concluded - about the decency of a photo, and the girl's' detractors have forgotten the fact the money is being raised to help a charity to assist the blind - the very people who are denied the privilege we on here clearly enjoy - namely the sight needed to view the picture and make a moral judgement.

Richard, the phrase is: 'cast ye your pearls before swine'

Just to let you all know the sale of the calendar is going really well. It's funny but quite a few people have mentioned when they called they only became aware of it after reading this thread and following the lively debate which has ensued.

So thanks for that Mr Carvath, your contributions are helping to increase our sales and helping to distribute the calendar so more and people can see it!

In fact, one person has told me he will buy one extra calendar for every comment Richard makes on this website.

So keep up the good work, sir!! You are helping us no end by continually drawing attention to it!!