NOTHING concentrates Manchester United minds like a clash against old rivals Liverpool - and Monday's Old Trafford showdown has maybe come at just the right time.
United fans watched in horror as their team fumbled and flopped its way through a disturbing first half in Lyon on Wednesday night.
And make no mistake about it, the knives are out for the likes of Mikael Silvestre, Tim Howard, and John O'Shea, all guilty parties in an inept defensive performance.
And the flak doesn't stop with the rearguard. The tried and trusted Red old guard, so often United's saviours on difficult and passionate European nights, went missing.
Rearguard? Old guard? More like a chocolate fireguard.
The manager singled out Ruud van Nistelrooy, Cristiano Ronaldo and Gabriel Heinze as the only players exempt from criticism - although it may have been an oversight that Wes Brown was left out of that group.
Maybe it is not coincidence that the three players named by Fergie are all part of the new generation at Old Trafford.
Where were the names of Roy Keane, Paul Scholes and Ryan Giggs, traditionally the first to trip off the manager's tongue when he talks about rescuing European games?
Memories
The beauty of football, for all the players who under-performed in Lyon, is that a decent display and a victory over Liverpool on Monday will soon see the bad memories fade to become the mere statistic of a good away point against the French champions, when it was actually a case of van Nistelrooy's goalscoring excellence, aided by Ronaldo's creativity, plastering over a multitude of sins.
There were dark hints from a disgruntled manager that the current state of affairs cannot be allowed to continue - though whether that means a change of personnel for the visit of the Scousers, or a verbal rocket for the under-performers, remains to be seen.
Fergie's problem at the moment is that decisions are being forced upon him, by injuries, by suspensions, and now by rank bad form.
He was forced to throw Gabriel Heinze into the fray immediately upon his return from the Olympics, when the best option would have been to let the Argentinian stew until he realises that playing for United is more important than playing for his country's under-23s side in a tournament with no football tradition.
He was forced to stick John O'Shea in at right back against Lyon, when a spell back in the Reserves might have suited the Irishman more.
He was forced to play Brown early after an injury, just as he was last year after Rio Ferdinand's decision to voluntarily begin his suspension.
Wednesday night's shambles was a good example of what happens when outside forces `pick' your team for you, with no regard for form or favour.
Ban
And the same could happen on Monday night. Ferdinand will be available again after his eight-month ban, and ideally he would tune up with a couple of games for the Reserves.
But the player has been "magnificent" in training according to the manager, and the temptation must be strong to take a risk and chuck him straight back in.
There is also a feeling that Wayne Rooney may be nearer a return than thought possible last week, and he could also provide the spark of inspiration that the manager is searching for after a series of wooden performances.
If he is fit, the temptation must, again, be to hurl him in against Liverpool.
Manchester United should not be in this situation, with players fighting to get out of the team and others being forced into it before they are ready.
Of course, the time to truly judge the depth of the current malaise is when everyone is fit and ready - but by then it could be too late, as far as the Premiership is concerned.
We were in the same predicament last season, when the Reds' first Champions League away trip resulted in a dreadful performance and a 2-1 defeat at Stuttgart.
The difference then was that there were no players waiting in the wings. The squad looked thin and elements of their Champions League squad were simply not good enough or too inexperienced - Diego Forlan, Luke Steele, Ben Williams, Mark Lynch and Paul McShane were all among the 25 players sent to UEFA.
The mighty United were having to make up the numbers by putting five goalkeepers in a 25-man Champions League squad.
This season's squad highlights the improvements since then - there are three keepers, all experienced, and the only players "along for the ride" would appear to be promising young Spanish defender Gerard Pique and midfielder Chris Eagles.
And so back to Liverpool, always a clean-slate game. Perform in this one, and past transgressions are forgiven.
Mess up, and the hyenas are waiting to pounce.
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How much longer are we going to have to put up with rubbish. The team have been poor for a long time. When did Giggsy last play well? Keane....legend but he's past it now. Djemba, o'shea, silverstre, fortune, bellion, kleberson......simply not good enough. Silvestre always looks like a mistake ready to happen. We don't seem to create enough chances in games and have'nt for a couple of years now. Scholes is a top lad but where do we play him. He can't play up front because we have 4 class strikers but he can't play centre midfield alongside Keane cause Keane has not got the legs anymore and Scholes has never really been able to tackle. Fergie has had plenty of money in the last couple of years and he really needs to deliver now. He's got Carlos back now (top coach) so we need to see some quality performances soon or maybe then if they don't come its time for a change.
sammy i agree with everything you say EXCEPT your comments about carlos the handsome one. what makes you thinks he's a 'top coach'? yes he broke records at madrid - but the wrong ones! he's also been the architect of the boring football we have played both this season and the last time he was with us - apart from the last 10 games when the manager took back control. don't believe the guff that the players like him! his record before coming to OT in japan and the states was average at best and his only success was when he coached the kids in portugal. now he has to deal with adults so come to your own conclusions! do you seriously believe that the manager chose to start with a 4-3-1-2 v everton? he's supposed to be a good defensive coach so what's happened this season? don't believe the hype just see what's happening on the pitch!
Good point there sammy. If Keane plays then the other player at his side serves as his zimmer frame. Keane is past it and we need him to be big enough to admit it, everyone can see it, so the longer he doesn't say it himself the worse it will be for him and the team. I've said it before, if you build a team around Keane for the future then there is no future. I think we all agree that our success has been based on a steady progression of fantastic central midfielders- Robbo, Ince, Keane, ???? If miller or Fletcher are going to be the future then they have to show their worth now. I'd be very happy if Giggs, Mik, Scholes and O'shea were dropped. At least it would show us that SAF is prepared to do something about their shocking displays this season. A decision that is well overdue.
I agree that Silvestre, O'Shea and others aren't performing at the moment, but it's unfair to say they've been shocking for a couple of years. Silvestre, whilst not on form, is still a class defender. I'd rather see him move to left back and have Heinze in centre with Rio or Brown. O'Shea is out of form too, but still class. Jonathan Spector is wicked though. I hope he gets a chance due to the bad showings of the defenders so far. I think he could be a serious contendor for a regular leftback.
As for midfield... I don't know what the solution is... Fletcher has been erratic in form for a while and Miller is in injury-row again.
A rather naive article by Stuart Brennan.
"Penalising" a player for playing for his country is not only stupid, but can cause friction and resentment towards SAF. Heinze and Ronaldo were both away at their respective continental championships and the Olympics yet have be among the best players in recent games. What would be the point of leaving Heinze out? Fortune is a mediocre player, moderate at best, and shouldn't even be in the team.
As for naming poor performers against Lyon, Brennan singularly omits Eric Djemba-Djemba, possibly the worst midfield player United have had for many a season.
Whilst I agree with all the sentiments from Sammy and Frank, nothing is going to change, if any until the summer. No players will be bought or sold and Fergies position is secure until the summer, no matter what position in the Premier we find ourselves in. Fergies time is coming to an end without a doubt and rightly so and when we eventually finish outside the top five, there will be a clearout. Why? Simple economics. Too many major shareholders have to much money to lose full stop! They need a successful, vibrant team back again on the cutting edge of fast exciting football, something this present will not gave us. But lads until then its time to get behind the team, support and encourage those at our club who will try and fight for their place, regardless of the trash who pretend to be footballers.
Agree with some of the points made here. Keane can occassionally produce a great performance but nowhere near often enough, and for our captain and main player in midfield that is not enough. We have nobody who can grab a game by the scruff of the neck and get us playing. For all the talk of defensive mistakes our biggest problem (and this goes back to last season) is that we simply cannot pass the ball to each other. Watching Arsenal play it reminds me of us a few years ago. They defend well in numbers and when they attack they attack! Players charge forward from deep and play quick passes, it's pretty simple stuff really but we seemed to abandon that tactic in search of European success (maybe Arsenal will as well). We just knock the ball around aimlessly with no one making any runs or offering anything (Ronaldo excepted). We should give Keane a purely defensive and drop Scholes in there and just try and get him dictating the play. Hopefully Rooney will help, he should have at least have some enthusiasm. Oh and O'Shea should be put in the reserves for a good while, I've never seen a player so quickly lose his way. If he was just playing badly it wouldn't be so bad but he just seems to not care anymore, he is a sloppy player or who needs a boot up his a**e.
Agree with the other comments: it's the usual from SAF, things had better improve or else - or else I'm going to give you detention. The players never seem to respond, so the logical conclusion is that they're not good enough anymore. Time for radical changes and please, SAF that doesn't mean PNev in midfield - even though he had a really good game against Arsenal 2 season ago.
Patience is a virtue. I repeated that mantra over and over again last season as I saw slowly saw the team I have supported for so many years crumble after a series of indifferent performances. But the close season finally came about and I had hope once again for the new season. That hope is all but extingusihed after just a handful of games this season. I really cannot remember when we were this awful to watch. I might have to go back to the 1988/89 season. Watching United play this season is like having a root canal done on a good tooth. Where and when did SAF lose the plot? What is the point of having Ronaldo, Rooney, RVN when we don't have the players capapble of supporting them!
When everyone is fit,the squad looks magnificent.My concern is that giggs,keane,and not so much scholes are coming to an end.Keane needs a hip replacement when he retires,scholes who quit international football looks very lethargic,and giggs cannot produce consistently anymore.Silvestre should be at left back,he is often exposed in the heart of the defence and also gives us a good attacking option when going forward.WES AT RIGHT BACK,RIO AND HEINZE IN THE CENTRE BACK POSITION,SILVESTRE AT LEFT BACK.When we play away go for the five man midfield with ruud on his own and when we are at home play the two strikers.Problems solved.Every one is giving Fergie grief,but lets not forget what he achieved.He got the holy grail back.
It will be great to se Rio running out against LooneyPool on monday, along with Rooney! This would be typical SAF, like RVN's "supprise" apperance against Bolton. I would love it, just love it!!! to quote a famous manager :) Maybe Spector will be back too, I thought he had some great games, and Silvestre should be given a break. My team would be. Howard (I still think he is better than Carrol) - BrownRB - RioCB - HeinzeCB - SpectorLB - RonaldoRM - KeanoCM - ScholesCM - Giggsy LM - Rooney between midtfield and VanTheMan ...
Steve good comments in buisness and United is a buisness who gets the chop first,it starts at the bottom I.E. High paid overated underachievers living off the past.New FACES AND ENERGY are inserted to get the company going if that fails, it does not take to long to work out that its the top man at fault and out he goes.
When and how much leway will the board allow this pensioner and his band of has beens to get away with this!
I think all of our problems can be put down to people missing (injuries etc.) and a few careless mistakes. That is except in central midfield. The midfield is offering no protection to the back 4, no inspiration and without Keane on song, Scholes seems lost. Playing with Keane used to be like playing with two good defensive midfielders, now he is still good, but only one! I think we need to try some new people. I don't think Djemba can cut it and nothing about Fletcher escites me. Hows about Miller and Kleberson to command the midfield and Rooney to provide the inspiration?
Big Bird - good point regarding the reality of the transfer and managerial situation for the rest of the season, i.e. that there will be no significant developments. The January window is, in the main, a non-starter for a club like Utd to buy top-class additions (as opposed to squad players) for the simple reason that almost all are likely to be cup-tied in Europe. In addition to that, the coffers for season 04-05 are pretty much empty. With regard to the summer, please let's move the discussion on by the collective realization that none amongst Gerrard, Vieira or Gattuso will be joining us to replace Keane. Furthermore, whereas it's all very well for some to demand that Keane be replaced, there is also a rather noticeable dearth of suggestions as to whom should be his replacement, apart from the unrealistic dreams of acquiring one of the three players mentioned.
I'm sick of hearing the same old same old from everybody. What other team has our injury list. Would Arsenal be playing their nice flowing football with 9 players sidelined. We get one player back and another goes down.
Keane and Scholes are playing their guts out with mediocrity around them and blunders from the goalkeeper and back four. DD hasn't got it but you had to give him a shot before you ditch him. Giggs and Sly are off form but who do you replace them with?
We are a hair away from having Rio with a couple of games under his belt and Rooney, Smith, Saha and Ruud all ready to go. Fletcher and Miller will get blended in and in January, if SAF doesn't go out and buy a top class winger then their is indeed something rotten in the state of OT.
We have to be patient because there is sweet FA Fergie can do with our injury list.
Spector and his pals are not part of the Fergie club bit like the masons,he has not even been invited to play one round of golf!
Does the chop include our own little God on Earth, Fergie?
Obviously, watching the start of this season hasn't brought too much joy. But it's not as if the roof is caving in or the floor giving way. I'd say that playing Lyon away, they are French champions three years in a row, is a tough game. 2-2 is not a bad result. OK, we were quite lucky to get it, but we did. That buys us time. And we all knew that would be necessary, with the excruciating injury list, the suspension of our best defender, and our two bright young things at the Olympics.
Another thing: I'm sick and tired of the criticism of the midfield signings of Sir Alex. He knows Keane and Scholes aren't young bucks any more. They have been marvellous for us, but Keane is well past 30, Scoles has played with the handicap of asthma all his life. What to do? You groom and buy a selection of replacements to see who grows into the role of a Manchester United player. And Djemba, Kleberson, Miller, Fletcher and yes, Fortune and P Nev, have all shown enormous promise at times. As have Howard, Brown, Silvestre, O'Shea...
However MUFC demands the highest quality in the world. Someone will fall by the wayside because they'll never be that MUFC player (Greening, Chadwick, Wallwork, Forlan) or because they are great players past their prime (Stam, Yorke, Sheri, Cole, Berg, Johnsen, Beckham, Veron, Butt). This might be that kind of season, and that is what we should read into Sir Alex' remarks about a settled back four: It's time to show that you are one of those four, five if you include the keeper.
It seems these pages are chock-full of suggestions about the finished article, but there are reasons (like the budget of a plc) why we can't be like Real or the Harlem Globetrotters. Ronaldinho, Viera, and Gerrard have been high on Sir Alex' wish list, but it wasn't to be for one reason or another. It's not that the gaffer doesn't rate them! And it would have made for the easier solution. But management is a competitive game. You don't win every player up for grabs (and some who aren't!). I would even say the galactico approach has its own dangers, like having to field virtually the same team for 20-30-40 matches, praying for them to stay fit and in shape and uninjured and motivated and hungry. Just ask Carlos Queiroz how that feels.
Of course a bit of bad luck and a couple of howlers make for a less than perfect start to the season, but there's no need to shout from the rooftops or commit suicide just yet. Come October we could still be playing the greatest football we have ever seen.
Always a believer. Always red.
If the club has any pride left they would Chop Fergie.
Mary, if you had any pride in the club you would be blessing the day that AF accepted to join Man U. From a club chasing success in vain for 26 years, he turned United to a club being chased by success. One record after another remember. It is not that long ago after all. The standards United have set for the rest are so high that clubs like Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool and so on, went out of their way and broke the bank just to get anywhere as successful as United, and they are still trying. You should kiss the ground the gaffer walks on. Of course I'm as disappointed as you for lack of good performances lately, but it can't be easy to keep such high standards for ever. You have to remember that AF built 3 very successful teams over a period of about 12 years and he's now on the 4th one. I believe that AF will be successful once again. The youngsters coming up are a very exciting lot and I for one think the 90's are round the corner once again. Surely you can't possibly mean it when you say Man U should get rid of the gaffer. He's done too much good to our beloved club to deserve that. REMEMBER IT"S ALL ABOUT BELIEVE MY GOOD FRIEND.
Interesting counter argument, Lasse, but our below-par performances cannot be blamed on the current problems alone. There's a malaise at the team that stretches back to last season, even at times when we had no major injury worries. I think it all stems from the gradual attitude that began to color United's play, basically of only doing enough and always conserving energy (for the Champions League final that never comes along). You can see it in Fergie's substitutions when we're 1-goal up, and in his team selections against 'weaker' teams. That's why we never score 4 these days. Why, when 3 or even 2 are just enough?
The solution? Either Fergie stops tinkering (highly unlikely to admit his errors now), or getting a new man in who would choose his best XI always and motivate them to dominate whole matches.
You can blame the 4-5-1 plan too, but even then players can run at the opposition. What we need is passion and urgency, for 90 minutes of every game.
I told you so!!! fergie was past it 2 years ago, he must go! Bring in Mike Phelen, He's a good player. Let us here the roar, FERGIE OUT FERGIE OUT. Mike Basset in. United are just like Oldham now, very bad!!
Dear Lasse from Norway
"Of course a bit of bad luck and a couple of howlers make for a less than perfect start to the season, but there's no need to shout from the rooftops or commit suicide just yet. Come October we could still be playing the greatest football we have ever seen. Always a believer. Always red. "
But how did we end the last season? And it is not just a bad start but the way we play, can you recall, including last season, any particulat match when we were outstanding?
blah blah blah whinging whinging whinging
Why do so many of you continue to dump on SAF?? Do you clear your memory every season end? Sure he has made errors, he's human, but he is a bloody good manager, he's proven that enough. Not all comes down to him, even the players bought and not bought, he tries to play the hand he is dealt as well as he can, and has done well considering. For god's sake, it's not even October, so have faith. No one ever said we would win everything forever, but in failing to do that , does it mean that SAF, Keane and the whole team is crap?? I don't think so. You can support the team through good and bad if you are a real supporter. By the way, nice to see Arse drop points, see, it isn't over yet , is it??!