Despite what some people think we are all human and we definitely all have the same rights.

The World is there for everyone to share equally and if anyone thinks differently then we know what they are thinking (crazy and unjust). Nothing wrong with having a system of equal rights because it is needed but it would be nice if it could work. Some people wont like it but we are entitled to our own peace of land to do as we please which is to help feed to stay alive and to have freedom to do as you please as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. The finger should be pointed at the people who make and protect an unjust world and move in a circle of safety in numbers. The amount of people that kid themselves is unbelievable.

The corralled lemming of the week award goes to me.

It is all very well to believe what politicians say. Didn't Tony Blair promise "Education, education, education"? No sign of that among the school leavers he failed to educate. Yes, we are told we are fighting terrorism - so we go to Iraq to help the Americans get their hands on the oil and kill our young men in Afghanistan in order to alienate both the Iraqis and the Afghanis, all the time importing terrists on a daily basis under our lax (to the point of non-existence for most purposes) immigration laws. Yes, we are told there will be no Sharia Law, while enclaves are allowed to operate the system with impunity, all the while agitating for it to be extended even to non-Muslims in the same area. Weren't we promised a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty/European Constitution by all three main parties (regardless of how far down the line, according to the Tories)? Have you had one yet? It seems to have passed me by. Anyone who listens to what a polician tells him without believing the exact opposite is at best naiive, at worst positively dangerous.

The EDL are an unknown quantity entitled to expresse their opinions until we have a clearer understanding. Let us not forget many Afro/Asian rulers were imprisoned by the British, but many prove to be wicked if not evil when released. Just as many imprisoned in Guantanamo have proved to be what they were claimed to be,with just a few unfortunate innocents caught up. And even there we can never be certain they are not dissembling. So these issues are not clear cut.

The so-called anti fascists are all too transparent.They have been shouting down and suppressing the rights of others for years,rendering free speech almost impossible, Is it any wonder attempts at free speech are uncertain and inchoate.

If I can point out the inbuilt bias. A revealing programme about General Wolfe and the battle of Quebec pointed out that the 7 years war between Britain and France began when a English officer patrolling the border between English,and Franch America,where there was a tacit understanding off his own bat broke the truce,and committed atrocities.
That officer was one George Washington who finished up leading the American settlers against the English who had defeated the French and opened America to the settlers at enormous cost in men and lives.
A reviewer in a quality paper blamed the English for all the atrocities, but failed to mention the crucial irony about George Washington.

Groups like EDL and UAF are only looking for excuses to engage in random violence. They are as guilty as whoever gives them those excuses (The Sun, Daily Mail, and all too often regional press like the MEN).
The UK has possibly the worst popular press in Europe, but this is always overlooked when talking about these issues. British newspapers have a huge conflict of interest when exposing their opinions on this sort of subjects. It's about time intelligent journalists like you, David, will admit as such and take some real action.

I agree that racism is bad.However, people are fraid that we our losing our 'Britishness'. Look at some of our cities where the white indiginous poulation are in the minority. Go to Cheetham Hill and Crumpsall and try to believe you are still in the UK. There is nothing wrong with immigration, but only to a point. Most illegal immigrants only want to come to the UK. They don't want to stay in other parts of Europe.We are seen as a soft touch. I personally didn't have enough points to get into Australia, but it seems that almost anyone can come here, even if they hate the British. Ofcourse like most, I respect anyone whether they are Black,Asian or White and whatever religion they practice,if any. However, we have to value our own culture(what is left of it) and try to decide if we continue to become the number one destiantion for the immigrants of the rest of the world. We are only a small island.

Good to see some sense written about Saturday's events at last!

The UAF are a shambles and should be ashamed that they took all the focus away from the hate-filled EDL.

The anti-EDL protest should have taken the form of a celebration of our multicultural society (and embraced our national flag - why should we let the far-right hijack it?) and ignored the EDL when they arrived.

The EDL have nothing positive to say about England and being English - just look at their promo vids on Youtube for Saturday's events - blatant recruitment to their cause of 'casuals' (hooligans) from football teams such as Leeds and Bradford.

As a member of the general public, I won't be attending UAF events in the future, but hope the silent masses at some point show the EDL that they have nothing in common with the majority of English people.

Marquis de Sade at 11.31, I agree with you, but there are people who would burn you at the stake for saying it.

Marquis de Sade et la petit monge tout

I did a post last week about my recent trip to Spain. I was really impressed with the spanishness that still abounds and their obvious delight in being spanish and holding dear all things spanish - flamenco, their food, their language etc.

Greece, Italy, Ireland, France and all other countries I have been to have the same national pride. Britiain doesn't seem to have either an identity these days or, seemingly, the will or desire to preserve what's left of Britishness.

Yes, yes, the same old cliches about how many times we've been invaded, mongrel race, no real British blah blah will come out no doubt, but the the same is too of the countries I have mentioned.

So why is it happening to Britain and not to all the other countries in Europe?

Anne Coates: "So why is it happening to Britain and not to all the other countries in Europe?"

It's false perception on your part. When you go to a foreign country, the things that are peculiar to that country stand out to you, because they are unusual. The same doesn't apply when you are in the country you come from.

Black Flag: the main thing that stands out in those countries is the complete lack of foreigners of every hue. Let's not try and kid ourselves, Engalnd is the destination of choice for every Tom, Dick and Ali.

I disagree anyway. When you go round a Spanish market, it is mostly spaniards selling spanish stuff. Been on Oldham outdoor market lately? Please give it a whirl on saturday and report back how at home you felt.

Anne Coates: "Black Flag: the main thing that stands out in those countries is the complete lack of foreigners of every hue. Let's not try and kid ourselves"

You're talking absolute nonsense. There are no shortage of migrants in other European nations. Maybe the residents just don't play the victim as much as you do, or maybe, because you just flit through, you don't actually gain as much of an understanding as you like to think.

"Engalnd is the destination of choice for every Tom, Dick and Ali."

You keep telling yourself that.

"I disagree anyway. When you go round a Spanish market, it is mostly spaniards selling spanish stuff. Been on Oldham outdoor market lately? Please give it a whirl on saturday and report back how at home you felt."

Oh dear. I could point you to any number of locations in Spain where it is overwhelmingly English, with goods marketed at ex-pats. You're not talking about the real world, but a charming pastiche which is served up to you.

Marquis de Sade
It is certainly not true that most immigrants want to come to the UK, as Spain, Italy, Germany, France amd the Nederlands (to name a few) all have large immigrant populations.

So long as the accident of being born in one country over another confers massive ecconomic advantages to some over others, many will choose to move to somewhere they percieve as offering c chanve to improve their lot, as it should.

Even the most peace loving Muslim if asked and they were honest, would like sharia law in this country at some point.
Lots already allow themselves to be put under it, albeit in a hush hush way community wise.
Whilst Extremism is the face of this fight for Sharia, don't kid yourself that it stops there.
It might sound fanciful now, but You can't trust any of the main parties to block this totally. It will creep in, because there is a constant fight for it by muslims who will not give in until it happens.
Just look at how we've been sold down the river being part of the European union and how much power has been shifted from this country. It's all part of a grand plan and this is just the beginning.

What is the solution? Perhaps the solution is just to give up and forget the Britain and England of past and what we fought for and accept the levels of immigration and how society will be shaped from that, or you can wish for things how they used to be and fight for that ideology.

Either way, it's very uncomfortable.

So Black Flag you don't feel that we have had too high an influx into this country of late, to the point of undermining the quintesential Britishness of the old place?

You didn't answer my question about Tommyfield.

Anne Coates: "So Black Flag you don't feel that we have had too high an influx into this country of late, to the point of undermining the quintesential Britishness of the old place?"

I don't think any influx has anything to do with it. Britishness is being most severely undermined by people who consider themselves indigenous and often complain most about Britishness being undermined.

If anything has traditionally exemplified Britain, it is a healthy restraint of state power, whether it be the freedom to leave your house without somebody being able to demand "papers please," or the principle that "an Englishman's home is his castle." The people working hardest to undermine that aren't recent immigrants, they are the state's "indigenous" useful idiots, who will applaud ID cards, surveillance, continual accountability to the state and other authoritarian un-British intrusions on the individual, whenever a scapegoat is waved in front of them.

"You didn't answer my question about Tommyfield."

I did.

Black Flag

so be it. Wave goodbye to Old England - the land that you were privileged to grow up. I hope your grandparents can forgive your couldn't give a dam attitiude to their inheritence.

"As a member of the general public, I won't be attending UAF events in the future, but hope the silent masses at some point show the EDL that they have nothing in common with the majority of English people"

Wow you should be on Brown's books since you know what the majority or English have in common and with who they have this in common with.

Anne Coates: "Black Flag, so be it. Wave goodbye to Old England - the land that you were privileged to grow up. I hope your grandparents can forgive your couldn't give a dam attitiude to their inheritence."

Unlike you, I do value that inheritance. I value the hard won freedoms and principles that actually made Britain great and which people like you want to pee up with wall.

You're a typical embarrassing joke - complaining about the loss of Britishness, while applauding as the country heads down a path which combines France's tradition of total regulation and Mussolini's approach to a police state.

At least have the guts to admit it - you hate those things which are quintessentially British.

with a declining population, we'll (all of europe) be nothing without immigrants. also they do all the jobs we don't want to do. but if that's not good enough, go and and breed, then there'll be no need for them, teenage pregnancy is always a winner for population boost....

It is difficult in a multicultural/religious society to bring about a common cause of living in peace together.

Some religion will always have something to say about the other and the same goes for race.

I think the British are very open but I think a lot of races are closed shops to outsiders which is fine as long as they are not planning to be mischievous.

I think politics has shown the world over that the minority can control the majority. But, there is always a tipping point so you have to be careful who you invite in.
You have to close borders to people with a long term underhanded ideology that is to bite the hand that feeds you.

Sometimes politics might say, well we live in our ivory towers and it doesn't effect us and let the communities deal with it, naughty. I just want my own garden with my own rubber tree so I can make my own car tyres.

Think Anne Coates is right

"If anything has traditionally exemplified Britain, it is a healthy restraint of state power, whether it be the freedom to leave your house without somebody being able to demand "papers please," or the principle that "an Englishman's home is his castle." The people working hardest to undermine that aren't recent immigrants, they are the state's "indigenous" useful idiots, who will applaud ID cards, surveillance, continual accountability to the state and other authoritarian un-British intrusions on the individual, whenever a scapegoat is waved in front of them"

A healthy control of state power, well the state has less control now than it has in the past, they cannot censor media now, their are human rights, free speach, we don't have set people owning the land and the rest of us working for them. The queen can't just do what she likes, like the monarcs of the past, you don't have parliment banning fun like cromwell. It's actually gone better but you think it is going worse, so I would say your view of Britishness is more then likely wrong.

lovinthebanter: "A healthy control of state power, well the state has less control now than it has in the past"

You seem to be a little bit confused about the way time works. It isn't a binary state which consists of "then" and "now." It is a continuum. The state may have less power than it did in the distant past (and even that is debatable), but it certainly has more than it did in the recent past.

"they cannot censor media now, their are human rights, free speach"

Free speech has been curtailed in recent years and the media has always been censored.

"we don't have set people owning the land and the rest of us working for them."

Actually, we do, but that's a separate issue.

"you don't have parliment banning fun like cromwell."

Not far off though - it just buries it in red tape. It's one area which has got considerably worse in recent years - almost any organised event requires a licence be obtained, people be vetted, approval be obtained from the police and other bureaucrats, fees be paid,... It's one of the clearest examples of the way in which civil society is being destroyed. As I alluded to previously, it's the kind of micro-regulation which has previously been typical of the French, but not the British.

And of course, if your chosen form fun is to take intoxicating substances, then for you, the government is continually banning fun.

"It's actually gone better but you think it is going worse"

Here's where you need to understand the nature of time to reach a sensible conclusion. Some time ago, things were worse, then after that, things go better, as people struggled to take control of their own lives, but after that, around about now, things started to get worse again.

"so I would say your view of Britishness is more then likely wrong."

I think we established in the past that your opinion tends to be built on very shaky ground.

lovinthebanter, Manchester
22/03/2010 at 17:32

Its an illusion.