Maybe, if the courts had real power to deal with low level crime, things would change. Maybe too, if the police gave a toss about low level crime, things would change.

Well said that man! If main courts can't/won't deal with it then let us have local courts to deal with such issues. I live above a parade of shops, they're constantly vandalised by local youths. They should be dealt with locally and made to pay back to local community, not told by some judge who lives in leafy suburbia that they came within a whisker of going to a youth offender's institute and they should behave themselves from now on.

Well how long did it take for you to figure that out Mr Fahy. The pathetic sentencing handed out by our courts has been quite the hot potatoe on these board threads/forums. And it's not just low level crime either - high level crime too!

I repeat my call for all judges to be held accountable for their sentencing cases (or lack of serious sentences there in).

Without question, it is the Police who let people down. They are too lazy to do their jobs properly. Adding to this, I fail to see the point of having obese police on foot patrol.

Pointing the finger at the courts is not a solution. Fahey, have you heard of the saying that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones?

I don't think Mr Fahy is suggesting any actual solutions here is he. Which I understand completely because the issues he is talking about have no simple, black and white answer. The solutiuon is clearly not just locking people up or 'nipping' it in the bud from an anti social behaviour point of view. The younger people are exposed to the prison system, the less of a deterrent it becomes, and without some deterrent things can only get worse.

Of course, we will always have the simpleton approach, which we hear (and will hear) on this board time and again i.e. capitol punishment, the birch, the stocks, life in prison etc etc. Again, in reality these things have never affected crime substantially - we only have to look at countries like America, where they are much tougher on crime, to see that that is the case.

I am not for a moment suggesting that people do not face punishment and imprisonment if they are a genuine threat and danger to the wider society. Much like Mr Fahy, I am not even suggesting a solution because what we are talking about here is a solution to societies ills in general (and far wiser men than me, throughout history, have failed to come up with an answer to that one).

One thing is for sure though, we cannot afford to just build or run more prisons and hope the problem goes away. At the end of the day we have a global society that has been based, for a hundred years or more, on purely individual gain. Communism was the first inkling of a possibe solution, but even that was a complete failure, laregly because it was never fully explored or expanded upon as a concept before the power hungry lunatics snatched the idea away for their own ends.

Domecracy, but not as we know it, could very well achieve the same ends. But again as a concept it has not been fully explored but rather jsut fully exploited. The fact is there will always be the have's and the have nots, and while we constantly bombard the have nots with the idea that they too can be the haves, if only they are prepared to trample everyone and everything in sight to get there, we will never solve these problems. It is no use starving a dog and then wondering why it eats you dinner when you are not looking.

I shall now await 'the usual suspects' with their cries of leftyism and liberalism etc, as they continue to wallow and wail about the injustice of it all from their sub urban semi's. But it isn't really very difficult. It just takes a littlrational thought. Good luck.

Seems to be blaming a lot of people other than the police. There's no doubt sentencing is pathetic, but you can blame the labour party for that with the monumentally stupid Criminal justice act 2003.

There are a few other though. Here's a few starters.....

Come on Mr Fahy tell the people of manchester how your fantastic managerial skills mean that only 5% of the police are in uniform on the streets at any one time. Then try explaining what the other 95% are doing. What's that 5 shifts I hear you say? That's 25% then. CID, Custody, training, well even if that's as many people as are in uniform, that still leaves 50% of the force, what are they doing? Must be important all that paperwork. The problem with the police is that officers like Mr Fahy haven't a clue what real police officers are doing and are utterly incapable of running a large organisation. You could sack everyone above the rank of inspector and no-one would notice or even care.

More bleating and breast beating from the man who re-instated a detective who was convicted of drink driving 'due to exceptional circumstances'

No one likes to see people lose their jobs and careers - but come on.

Where did they get this guy from?

not just the courts and the police, the entire system is broken. none of it works, it all needs replacing.

I agree with Peter Fahy that the courts are letting down the public, but I think the courts are only indirectly responsible. The direct responsibility for all of this is this Labour government.

They refuse to build more prisons, they dictate sentencing policy, they choose to let the low-level scum go unpunished because 1). It gives police a better arrest record continually arresting these people for repeatedly offending and as a consequence the Labour idiots can spout that they're being 'tough on crime', and 2). It gives a population of 'professional apologisers' something to do creating mountains of paperwork, reports and other hare-brained schemes that are proven to have absolutely no effect on the crime rate.

Until we get a government that is prepared to build more prisons and lock-up these offenders we will see an ever increasing crime-rate in a society that is currently blighted by all types of crime! Well done NuLabour, your supposed multi-billion spending on crime has had no effect other then to increase crime rates.

we should look into 3 strikes and then a long prison term, as they do in the states.
This were deter them!

Here we go again, blame everyone else. I personally will never forgive Fahy for his total let down of Gary Newlove when he was in Cheshire. He shouldnt have got the GMP job - in fact he ought to have been fired.

I think you'll find the magistrates jumping up and down at the police insistance on using fixed penalties rather than placing offenders in front of them.

It all starts with the police and the cases they build...

And you know why that is Peter,because courts and the police are so sympathetic to the rights of the criminals over the victims,you need to get your house in order first to change this.

Mr Fahy, don't blame the Courts - blame the Goverment.

Moorlok hits the nail on the head. Also the "Police Pledge" and "Neighbourhood Policing" introduced by Labour have been remarkable in achieving the opposite of what they intended. Instead of getting local officers back out on the street for 80% of the time and "engaging " with members of the public and businesses - they are sat inside completing paperwork, or computer work as it is now - updating spreadsheets and the like showing how they have achieved the pledge. They are organising "surgeries" and putting up posters for meetings attended by less than 5 people! The compliance with Labours Neighbourhood Policing targets creates yet more bureaucracy - to feed the every hungry Home Office propaganda machine.
People come second after Central Government dictats.

The younger people are exposed to the prison system, the less of a deterrent it becomes, and without some deterrent things can only get worse.

salfordrat
26/11/2009 at 09:5

You've answered your own question really. Prisons are NOT a deterrent because those incarcerated can carry on their criminal activities from their prison cells. Prisons should be a place of emotional and physical pain; hard labour for those with more serious crimes.

Hamish Macbeth: "Mr Fahy, don't blame the Courts - blame the Goverment."

To be fair to him, I think he is. The headline is a bit misleading.

The government want to replace the traditional policeman with systems such as increasing CCTV cameras and having a National DNA data base. Most criminals these days are caught by security guards or doorstaff, the police are there just to collect them,process the paperwork and then lock them up, today the Policeforce is re-active when it should be pro-active, higher local police profiles, more random searchs and more prisons is the way to cut crime.

The answer is simple !. If the Judges are being directed or dictated to more like not to push low level offenders into jail then we must have a real deterent & i don't mean putting some poxy tag around the ankle or stupid community orders / ASBO's etc which they think is trendy etc. BRING BACK THE BIRCH & then give them some big heavy ball & chain to carry around for a month or so !. Better still bring back national service where for the last number of years they would learn how to respect for other's or would have a short hard life trying to look after themselves behind enemy lines !!. I'm now waiting for some do gooder to reply with some form of shock & horror at the inhumane treatment I would dish out, well let me counter before you even try. I DON'T CARE !!

@budda: "we should look into 3 strikes and then a long prison term, as they do in the states. This were deter them!"

lol, because it sure works so well for them, in fact, i do believe america has no crime at all now because of this 3 strikes system and long term prison sentences.... /sarcasm

seriously, where do you guys pull these crazy ideas from? its obvious locking people up after they've been bad just doesn't work, they need to start fixing the root causes of these issues, such as poverty, no prospects, lack of respect, nothing to do etc etc etc. and the simplest solution would be a citizens wage, so vote green!!!

I agree that the justice system is letting people down,along with all other authorities. When trying to make a difference in communities volunteers are obstructed in many ways. There are many Tenant and Resident assossiations working hard for bottom up change.People who start off with good intentions ,hoping to make a difference in their area.Unpaid volunteers who do a lotof good work,ie applying for funding to clear grotspots,alley gating,traffic calming,play areas etc.They attend many meetings with councils,housing,police,community safty and others involved in communities. What people dont wish to do when they are in this role is become the local informer.In a recent story in MEN it stated.'Police will visit victims and informants.'Who will the public think these informants are?Tenants reps? People working in communities,whether part of a group or as individuals dont want to be labelled,as if they are an extension of the council/housing /police. Some may be,but thats for them to defend,but most are not.Most areon the side of those they try to help. This was what wardens/community police were supposed to be about.A presence and proffessional witnesses.Why should volunteers do the job of anyone on a salary?The idea of tenants groups in my eyes is that they want to do things to improve their area. It takes a long time to build trust,and for people to realize you are on their side ,to be destroyed over and over again by 'proffessionals who dont understand that they can destroy that with a few careless comments.Ive lost count of the number of excellent people who gave up because of this.Yes people cant bring about that change as they become part of what is wrong.

RJKS: "Better still bring back national service where for the last number of years they would learn how to respect for other's or would have a short hard life trying to look after themselves behind enemy lines"

Given that the prison population contains a disproportionate number of ex-servicemen, the evidence seems to suggest that, if anything, military service makes you more likely to commit crime, not less.

Salfordrat, the "haves" are not exclusively lucky beggars you know. I have a semi-detached - courtesy of the building society. I set out to own one at age 23, and hopefully will do when I'm 60 years old. In the meantime, I have stuck at work, even at jobs I hated. You know, early morning to dusk with hassle, stress and sometimes illness, and the drudgery of commuting. Pretty standard for a lot of peope you know. I've taken kicks in the teeth like redundancy, and gone through times when I was on the road to losing everything through only getting £58pw from the State for a maximum of 6 months. It pees me off when I see what the career-breeders can get when they've never worked.

When you've had a lifetime of all that struggle, you are entitled to feel a little proud, and disrespect for those who just want everything on a plate. Particularly those who will attack, maim and rob you for what you have. Some will even kill you as well if you try to fight back. Sorry, but those types need correcting or putting away for good. They would run a thousand miles from doing a days work to acquire what they want or need. If everyone were a liberalist like you, life would be simply awful.

It's more than likely all down to prison space.

Almighty God ""where do you guys pull these crazy ideas from? its obvious locking people up after they've been bad just doesn't work, they need to start fixing the root causes of these issues, such as poverty, no prospects, lack of respect,""

Bless you and your naivety. There is an old saying "You can't polish a t*rd". The career criminal underclass cannot be given prospects - they are not interested in a job, true respect and working for a living. Even if you gave them a big house they would still trash it and go out on the rob. Many people are poor but still have respect and work for a living rather than robbing.
You cannot change an ingrained culture overnight. It will take decades to sort out their lifestyles. This needs to start now by disincentives to breed and reduction in child benefits.
In the meantime - the only respect they learn is when in prison and they call the Warders "Boss". It also gives the working taxpaying population a break from their antics

PW. One of the best posts I have ever read on here. May you thrive and proper and may all the cadging pramfaces, druggies and thieving scrotes rot in the sewer of their own making.
If the courts won't give justice, the people will start to take matters in their own hands.

WE WANT MORE PRISONS AND HARSHER LONGER JAIL TERMS, AND DETERRANT IS WHATS NEEDED!!!!

LOOK AFTER LAW ABIDING CITIZENS INSTEAD OF WORRYING ABOUT THE CRIMINALS!!!!