Old people would be wary of going out in the evening. People would say their neighbourhood was plagued by a few ill-parented yobs.
One constant refrain: "I know this estate has a bad name, but it's just a few bad families causing all the bother,"
Cars would be damaged, gable ends scrawled with graffiti and younger children intimidated. So the razor wire would go up on back yard walls, the local shop would get Fort Knox-style security shutters, everybody would get a big dog and the fortress mentality took hold.
There were little victories. Council housing departments began to evict some of the real neighbours from hell. The advent of the ASBO - the anti social behaviour order - meant the local tearaway was being named and shamed, even, sometimes, locked up.
But for every shamed ASBO kid, there seemed to be a law-abiding citizen whose fate proved the battle was not won. When Garry Newlove was kicked to death outside his Warrington home after remonstrating with youths over vandalism to his wife's car, it provoked just the latest in a long line of impassioned debates about law and order.
Failed attempts
All the buzzwords like Tony Blair's "Respect" agenda then began to seem like failed attempts to re-brand the problems away.
And now anti-social behaviour is shaping up as a key battleground for the two main parties in the next general election. Gordon Brown pledged: "Whenever and wherever there is anti-social behaviour, we will be there to fight it". Home Secretary Alan Johnson says he will set police and councils tough new targets for dealing with the yobs.
Tory leader David Cameron, once eager to hug a hoodie, used his conference speech to cite Fiona Pilkington - who killed herself and her disabled daughter after years of harassment from local youths in Hinckley, Leicestershire - as evidence of a breakdown of community and our criminal justice system. The Tories, Cameron said, "will reform the police, reform the courts, reform prisons. We will be there to protect you."
The politicians may promise to lock a few more people up. But last Friday the prison population for England and Wales stood at 85,395, nearly twice the number in the 'overcrowded' system at the time of the 1990 Strangeways riot. And yet our streets are still stalked by feral youth?!
The Manchester streets I first trudged in 1979 were the dark side of Margaret Thatcher's dream. I saw the factories of east Manchester fall into extinction like so many dinosaurs, leaving little employment for adults and precious little hope for their children. From chaotic, fragmented families came a hopeless generation whose own children now face similar lack of opportunity.
The business pundits will tell you the recession is almost over. Yes, the FTSE is rising, but so is youth unemployment, with the TUC claiming that 39 per cent of 16 to 24-year-olds have been out of work for longer than six months - the highest figure for 15 years.
It is too trite to say that unemployment always leads to crime and anti-social behaviour, but those for whom society cannot find a useful place are surely less likely to feel bound by that society's rules.
To borrow Tony Blair's empty words, we need to be not only tough on crime, but tough on the causes of crime.
When comedy becomes a crashing bore
ON the recent 40th anniversary of Monty Python's Flying Circus, a debate began as to whether this great comedy totem is still funny or not.
It would be amazing if it was. When it comes to comedy, we kill the ones we love. We kill them by repetition. Millions of us know the Dead Parrot sketch by heart. The Four Yorkshiremen is now a dreary, weary, workaday gag.
These thoughts occurred as I read that hundreds of people turned out in London to celebrate another comedy institution - the 30th anniversary of Douglas Adams's Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy.
These fanatics had turned out in Arthur Dent-style dressing gowns. I couldn't help feeling these may be people who describe themselves as 'zany', who may have a sign on their desks saying 'You don't have to be mad to work here... but it helps!', people, indeed, perfectly identified by Ricky Gervais in the character of David Brent - the man who feasted on comedy but burped pure tragedy.
What's the funniest comedy skit ever? I'd go for John Cleese in Fawlty Towers, failing to avoid mentioning the war.
And the least funny? The same skit as done by a bloke down the pub.
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the ferral youths out there causing the trouble are only the end result of the problem.
the parents who bring up these kids are the root cause and unless you sort them out this problem will never go away.
the majority of the time these parents come from a benefits background and usually they have no respect for anyone, including themselves.
all blairs and browns government have done is fund this problem and made it worse.
Mrs Newlove campaign was something I would like to support. However I feel that she has lost some support because she (correct me if i'm wrong) has extended her cause to include the return of the death penalty. And whilst many like minded parents (including myself) would want to follow her and give her support and to do something to root out the villains and causes. However, many fall short of the desire to return of the noose. Lots of people want to vote green but when they dig deep and hear what the Green Party want to do (abolish the monarchy and hand over uk powers to Brussels) then it ceases to be something they want to vote for despite their environmental credentials.
Is that the reason why Mrs Newlove's campaign did not take on a "madeliene mccann" momentum. Yes people want to support her but not to re-introduce capital punishment. Tough one.
20 years would do me for life sentence then your 1st parole hearing (not parole release). At the moment its usually 11 and out in 8. Not enough.
Most of the problems,and the causes that the Gov keep threatening to tackle boil down to inadequate parents.Working or not.Unable to resolve conflict within their own lives,let alone outside in the workplace and society in general.Jeremy Kyle show is a good example.Many working parents havent brought their own children up,someone else has.Of course if the grandparents have looked after the child while they ork and have done a good job,due to long experience and maturity the working parents take the credit.If its all gone wrong then someone else is to blame,never them.
Being a parent is never an easy thing,more so these days.Families living further apart,children not being able to play out and learn a few strategies for avoiding bullying and abuse,addiction another problem,where the parents have not grown up emotionally themselves and cant put the childs needs before their own etc.
Some tv programmes have been very useful in helping parents deal with problems with small children,but theres nothing for parents of older children,under peer pressure for instance.Ive met youths who are causing havoc,some with working parents who have asbos.The overwhelming feeling is that they are such babies emotionally.Then you meet the parents and see why.
Don't blame parents. Most parents want yobs punished. Physical punishment in schools was abolished AGAINST the wishes of parents. The latest is to try to demonise and prosecute parents who give their children a good smack. There is only one thing wrong and it is the criminal justice system and the wooly liberals who have taken control of it.
Abolish the current statute that states under 10 years old can’t be prosecuted and between 10 and 14 there needs to be proof they knew what they were doing was wrong.
Then when the said yob then commits an offence prosecute it and place into the care of the state with properly trained carers that will guide it back to the straight and narrow.
In the mean time prosecute and sentence the parents of feral yobs to the full extent of the law with greater harshness imprisoning them for significant periods of time and forcing the sale of anything and everything they own to pay for the damage, replacement and upset their brats have caused.
Anybody who has lived next to or near to a family from hell knows how horrendous it is and how useless the police are in dealing with it.
Steve an alternative view.Ive lived next to neighbours from hell a few times and agree with what you say about police,though I have had more issues with people who work in housing.Far more,which I am only just beginning to get over.When I was offered help and counselling I didnt need it for the neighbours from hell situation.That was nothing compared to council and housing association teams.
What I can say and Ive experienced this several times since I had my first council property at 19 is that no one ever helped them.No one ever dealt with the real issues of child abuse,mental illness,domestic violence.I can go back almost 40 yrs.They went for the easy option ,like now.Nothing changes and I see the first family I ever met,with well meaning social workers,medical people,schools,making allowances(as in if they dont appear we wont hassle you)to mental health,community workers etc throwing a few black bags in to a woman with serious physical and mental health problems an hour before she was due to move and wanted to take her collection of septic waste collected over the years with her.And she did.These are the people now looking down on the poor.On the people who live amongst this and can still feel some compassion,even at times becoming neighbours from hell themselves when all thats left to them is survival of the fittest.What you need to remember is some of them are superfit.And some of you are not fit at all.Not in any way.
I'm old and I'm bitter - I accept that. At 54 years old I lived through a school system that still employed the cane and slipper. I was still living in a time when the local bobby could clip you around the ear without fear of my parents or any do-gooder trying to sue. None of that did me any harm at all, in fact just the reverse. It did me a power of good as it taught me right from wrong. It focused my attention when I stepped out of line.
During the 60's school was an institue of learning, we were streamed so that those with academic skills were taught at a faster pace and covered more of the specialist subjects such as Latin, the Classics etc. There were Grammar schools for the more academically minded and Secondary Modern for those who had more practical skills.
We didn't have a shortage of "blue collar" workers, we had plumbers and electricians, car mechanics and the like and we didn't have to accept immigrants from the "Common Market" to fill the skill shortage.
That's because if you didn't turn up at school or you messed around, you were punished. Not just sent home, because that's what you wanted all the time.
Now we have taken away streaming, we are all equal and we are all to have the same opportunities. Well, we are not all equal, some have considerable better brains than others. Now those smarter children sit bored to death in class because some of the slower kids can't keep up. We knew that back in the 60's - that's why we had the 11+ exam and the two levels of education.
Now the more practical student has to sit bored to death in English Literature, not even knowing the meaning of the word literature. He would much rather be in the woodwork shop or the metalwork shop learning how to turn wood or to get a screw thread on the end of a central heating pipe. So he skives off, ends up with no education, no qualifications and on the dole - prime targets for the criminal elements.
Now we import all of our practical skill staff from Europe and beyond.
We import our nursing staff from anywhere and lower the standards in health care. You cannot argue with that statement if you have been in St Mary's, MRI or Hope recently. The wards are filthy & the care is poor. I am not blaming the people employed, but am laying the cause for that at our so called Health Managers, who couldn't manage the proverbial in a brewery.
Now those who skive school drift into ferral gangs.
The Police can't touch them, without a parent or other do-gooder screaming about Human Rights.
So they become the Untouchables, breeding more Untouchable minded brats.
And you wonder why this England is deteriating into Anarchy.
If you want to cure this sickness, give back the power of authority to the Police, the schools and the parents, and make them responsible and accountable for that power. Remove all Human Rights of those who break the Law, get those in prisons into chain gangs to clean up the filth as a way of earning their food in prison, take away the play stations, the computers, make prisons somewhere you dont want to go back to, get the snotty nosed little hooligans in boot camps for some serious hard labour under wardens who are hard enough to mix it with the little b'stards.
Get some discipline back and we will see this country grow again. (I know, it sounds like a Monty Python sketch)
If we just leave it to our existing weak kneed politicians, those on the far right and far left will drum up support as they did in the recent European elections.
So if you don't want Nazi thugs or Looney lefts running this country - Wake up and do something about it.
end of rant!
source de sagesse, Manchester
14/10/2009 at 13:21 "don't blame parents"
Of course we should blame parents ! If your child is staggering home anywhere between 12 and 3am drunk, you are the problem. I've heard every excuse from parents, even the roll of the eyeballs and "he's a lad.."
Point is they are useless lazy and indifferent parents.
The parents are the problem.
Bertie McGrew. I really do find it a pity that the authorities would completely ignore your comments. I do mean that. Common sense no longer carries any weighting.
I blame it on "Grange Hill"
until they are 18 they are still classed as a child. therefore as a child their parents are responsible.
if the child is brought up properly it is soley the parents fault and if serious things occur then both child and parents should be punished.
maybe that might make some parents realise they're held accountable of their irresponsibility
This Country is "lawless" and not fit for inhabiting.and having lived for getting on for 8 decades,and being reasonably intelligent across a range of subjects and watchful, the rat race is over "the rats have won".
There is no control now regardless of age,and being led by scoundrals across the classes,and even with an obvious disfunctional royal family,I would say to any young person with a sense of purpose and need to live in a more responsible and honest society,my advice would be peruse the various countries who actually do administrate in a relatively decent way,and go there as fast as your legs will move.
Fear of acting irresponsibly and decent has left these shores,and left the dross as inhabitants,
who never admit anything.
Lets get down to some root causes:
The Media is obsessed with running sleazy,celeb and worthless stories every minute of the day stuffing perpetual images of brain dead self adoring people who would not be heard of if the media stuck to informing instead of being incredibly sycophatic towards the dross in our society.
Adoration for the good and responsible is exchanged for "who has been seen on a night out,who has been seen drunk,or who is getting fatter or pregnant,etc etc and allowing such nothings onto every page and screen.
Anyone could be a reporter or correspondent now,simply stand on street corners where celebs drink,party,and expose themselves and better still with a photograph in your collection you are now
press reporters and allowed to lead the brain dead followers into cuckhoo land.
Thank you PW for your vote of confidence - I thought it was just me getting old. I sincerely hope that there are lots of others out there who share my point of view, otherwise this once Great Britain will no longer be considered as such.
Ripping Yarns series Michael Palin. Otherwise on the crime issue this has not change and will never change. A lot of movement happened when different reporting of crimes in the media circle created this mystic on the crimewave. But the solutions were justified. The society has got to change first then law and order not the other way round. Look around manchester of the increase in suburban housing policy, not a great demand for factories . Most sink estate were mainly for the working areas, which covered a large working age population from granddad to father to son, same with women folk. So the problem lie with local politicians not fighting our behalf in grabbing work when another is closed. Society been allowed to grow into this problem. Whichever colour you vote for has made no difference. My idea would be to make this englisc country great again. By again looking at what improvement to work on a industrial scale, in other words a mini industrial revolution, but only in england.
Well said Bertie,
I'm 10 years younger than you and I could see those values you mentioned just about eroded as I finished school in 81/82. Society was built on people working and there was work for people to do; fish the sea, dig the mines, work in the factory, plough the field. There are millions of people who don't have career aspirations they just want to do a job, get paid and go home. Nothing wrong in that philosophy. There is nothing / little for people to do now as manufacturing is covered by China low level admin work is done by call centres which are outsourced to India.
People have little / no self worth and hence drug / crime become options. It's very sad sometimes. We need to develop an economy that creates work for people to do. The Americans call it keeping people in work, the rest of the world refer to it as unfair protectionism.
BTW this rant is apolitical.
You're not going to see a reduction in youth unemployment until it becomes much cheaper to hire them.
The minimum wage for under 22's has priced youth workers out of the market - why spend so much in wages for an unknown quantity when, for a small amount extra, you can get an experienced East European, who usually works harder?
Remove the minimum wage for under 22's, set the income tax floor to £10k, improve education and watch things improve.
"Bertie McGrew , Northern Countryside" (no re-post to save MEN bandwith) ;-)
I can't fault most of which you opine - maybe it's because we are of a similar age, and appreciate we were the lucky ones when good values still existed.
As an addendum: I would urge the use of 'workfair'. Not as a punishment (people shouldn't be penalised if there is no 'real' work), but as a means to improve society by helping the elderly and/or vulnerable, while restoring self-respect to those who don't see honest toil as something to be endured - more of a stepping stone to something better.
Successive governments have wasted the vast revenues from North Sea oil - and I say that as a proud Scot who sees the Union as the way forward - by propping up a benefits system that encourages indolence and sloth, while failing to protect the decent, (largely) honest members of society who want nothing more than to be allowed to get on with their lives.
Root and branch changes to benefits are required - but who (honestly) can do that... probably none of the current crop of politicians the nation is lumbered with.
If it's not the yobs fault it's the parents, if it's not the parents fault it's the telly, if it's not the telly it's the benefits system, if it's not the benefits system it's the national curriculum. Here's one, why not blame the government? Funny how we all blame ourselves, isn't it!
The yobs have nothing to do and face no real consequences. How can they better themselves with no capital and no community resources while at the same time living in a world where people worship luxury goods that they cannot afford? No pooint blaming the parents. They may not have the intelligence because of a poor education in state schools to be able to work out and resolve problems. Most are even being intimidated by their own children in this morally corrupt society. They carry machetes for goodness sake.
I, too, am of the age of Bertie McGrew. Couple of years older, actually.
One of the things that hit me right between the eyes is the quality of written English of those of my generation.
Apart from an obviously better education than that on offer now one wonders what happened to ethics. Were these values taught at school way back when? I don't remember them but perhaps they were an integral, albeit subtle, part of our upbringing.
The memory of being marched home by the local constable (on tip-toe because he had you gripped by the scruff) with a few well placed blows with his rolled rain cape, remains. And it didn't cause any psychological damage that I'm aware of.
A far better prospect than an arrest and a conviction.
Maybe were all just too damned old. :-)
Laura that's what bothers me the most - the electorate have little faith in those who govern and those who would govern. So they turn to those who suggest that they are the Party to turn around this nation and the vast majority of policies will appeal to the majority of the electorate. What we dont see, because we dont look hard enough, or just want to overlook in favour of the rest of the message, is the one or two pure evil policies.
And Laura, people will vote for the BNP because they are prepared to give most of us what we want. And all of a sudden we will have race riots and violent protests as we had this weekend. What then for this green and pleasant land.
All of a sudden I dont feel at peace in my own land anymore, and am rapidly losing the will to live.
I was walking my dog at 4:15 am today, there was a light drizzle falling and a little mist. On some wasteland a group of local boys and girls were still partying, opposite the sheltered housing scheme. To themselves I suppose that they were harming no one. The shrieking of the girls was ear splitting and could be heard a long way. Most of them live within 200 metres and all are of school age.
This afternoon I walked my dog there. Two empty 1 ltr vodka bottles, five empty £1.39p cider bottles and a further two lambrini bottles, one smashed. Detritus over a 20 square yd area.
I remember when 9 pm was a suitable bedtime for school aged children, In your Pjs by 9 on a saturday but allowed to stay up until 10pm as a treat. Parents usually went to bed by 10:30 or 11pm....it has all gone so sour!