LORD Bill Brett, the minister responsible for the introduction of ID card scheme that will be trialled in the north west, visited the M.E.N on to answer your questions. Log on here to webchat.
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Lord Brett ID card web chat
August 27, 2009
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Given the government's record on IT projects, why should we tolerate billions of pounds being spent on an extremely complex project, when we can have no more than minimal confidence of it's success?
Given the government's track record on data security and loss, why should we allow so much personal data to be stored on the National Identity Register?
What is the justification for spending so much money on a project with no clearly-defined objectives and sucess/failure criteria during a time of financial hardship?
Why are the current passport and driving license documents not adequate identification?
Enough of the light-on-facts government spin. When is the government or it's contractors going to produce a detailed report on precisely what problems this scheme is going to solve, and how?
Why is this ridiculous government obssessed with collecting private data on the entre UK population?
In order for democracy to function correctly, why not hold a referendum to decide the fate of the National Identity scheme? Such a major project with a fundamental impact on the relationship of the state and the population deserves an open debate where the populace are given the opportunity to express their opinions.
Who's he?
I don't remember voting for him!
I don't remember voting for him!
"Who's he? I don't remember voting for him!
gladys rowbotham"
I know! I thought the various Home Secretaries we've had were resposible for introducing ID Cards, first Smith, then Johnston. Silly me.
Is this guy just another Labour Lordship like Mandleson? Bring back hereditary peers, all is forgiven!
gladys rowbotham"
I know! I thought the various Home Secretaries we've had were resposible for introducing ID Cards, first Smith, then Johnston. Silly me.
Is this guy just another Labour Lordship like Mandleson? Bring back hereditary peers, all is forgiven!
It's not compulsory and I won't be having one either!
There was a lot of support for ID cards when they were first announced, I was one of those in favour, after seeing the incompetent way the government has been running things since I'm now 100% against.
VOTE NO by not getting one, as this is a trial in the region, all the other national pressures cannot be applied yet, ie. credit rating, stop and search, criminal record, spending habits, DNA record, iris recognition information, social classification A to C the list goes on.Come on Mancunians and us North West people, remember the government are looking for a way out of this one without loosing face, give it to them.The EU know where you live!
why are they still trying to force this through?
I read last week that one had been cloned in 15 minutes!
As the technical glitches prevented some of my points from making it into the webchat, I shall ask again here.
When teenagers are hacking into the Pentagon, how can any information submitted to a computer database ever be secure?
Criminals will find a way around any system, as they do already. Impressionable people with no record of any wrongdoing can be used by organisations to commit crimes. The way to fight crime is by investing in intellgence-led policing, not by creating bureaucracy that will inconvenience the law-abiding majority. The ID Card system will lead to a false sense of security. I advise people to think very carefully about who might use their information in the future, and how they might use it, before deciding to sign up to the database. We must bin this scheme along with the congestion charge, Manchester can do without it.
Paul
When teenagers are hacking into the Pentagon, how can any information submitted to a computer database ever be secure?
Criminals will find a way around any system, as they do already. Impressionable people with no record of any wrongdoing can be used by organisations to commit crimes. The way to fight crime is by investing in intellgence-led policing, not by creating bureaucracy that will inconvenience the law-abiding majority. The ID Card system will lead to a false sense of security. I advise people to think very carefully about who might use their information in the future, and how they might use it, before deciding to sign up to the database. We must bin this scheme along with the congestion charge, Manchester can do without it.
Paul
Is this the same Lord Brett Sinclair who fought crime with Danny Wilde in the early seventies ? They were a force to be reckoned with.
Vote Stealth Taxes - Vote Big Brother - Vote Labour
ID Cards plus VAT plus Stealth Tax plus Civil Penalties (already set at £1000 for each infringement).
ID Cards plus VAT plus Stealth Tax plus Civil Penalties (already set at £1000 for each infringement).
Why is this ridiculous government obssessed with collecting private data on the entre UK population?
Batfink, Manchester
Oh yes WHY indeed ? Mr Batfink I seem to remember a film, episode Ok it was the cartoon. "Batfink the copycat bat" Maybe thats why.
Batfink, Manchester
Oh yes WHY indeed ? Mr Batfink I seem to remember a film, episode Ok it was the cartoon. "Batfink the copycat bat" Maybe thats why.
According to Lord Bill Bret, 'Firstly, this is not a trial. This is the first stage of a roll-out across the whole of the UK of ID cards. It will move from Manchester to the North West and beyond.'
So, it's NOT a trial after all. If they can't even get this bit of information right what hope have we got they can be trusted with 50 pieces of information about us. We have been told again and again we have been chosen (lucky us eh?) to trial this database.
This seems a case of left hand not knowing what right hand is doing and instils absolutely NO CONFIDENCE in this government to implement any scheme dealing with huge amounts of our private details.
Anyone remember the child benefit scandal of lost data?
A record 37 million items of personal data went missing last year according to the Guardian and most of the data was lost by government officials.
I am staggered that the reportedly 8,000 people who have already signed up are so trustful of government to hand over details that will have to updated FOR LIFE and which they will have to pay for to boot. The disingenuous thing about all this is that I have not read one truthful reason why this massive database is needed. The reasons have been changed so many times that I am sure there is something the gov. don't want us to know. I would like to know why we need to be databased, tagged and intruded upon for the rest of our lives. It will certainly change the nature of our democracy in that we have to justify ourselves to the state and not the state justifying itself to us.
If, as Lord Bill Brett states, this is just the first round in introducing it to the country then we have no hope it will remain 'voluntary' for long, after all, when you can't buy something without one then you will have to 'voluntarily' get one. How clever. How Double Think.
One last point - why should I have to have an ID card just so some sections of the population can buy booze? It's like saying everyone is a potential child abuser so we will put every child in Britain on a huge database so we can check up on them when we need to. Oh yeah - they have already done that it's called Contactpoint.
So, it's NOT a trial after all. If they can't even get this bit of information right what hope have we got they can be trusted with 50 pieces of information about us. We have been told again and again we have been chosen (lucky us eh?) to trial this database.
This seems a case of left hand not knowing what right hand is doing and instils absolutely NO CONFIDENCE in this government to implement any scheme dealing with huge amounts of our private details.
Anyone remember the child benefit scandal of lost data?
A record 37 million items of personal data went missing last year according to the Guardian and most of the data was lost by government officials.
I am staggered that the reportedly 8,000 people who have already signed up are so trustful of government to hand over details that will have to updated FOR LIFE and which they will have to pay for to boot. The disingenuous thing about all this is that I have not read one truthful reason why this massive database is needed. The reasons have been changed so many times that I am sure there is something the gov. don't want us to know. I would like to know why we need to be databased, tagged and intruded upon for the rest of our lives. It will certainly change the nature of our democracy in that we have to justify ourselves to the state and not the state justifying itself to us.
If, as Lord Bill Brett states, this is just the first round in introducing it to the country then we have no hope it will remain 'voluntary' for long, after all, when you can't buy something without one then you will have to 'voluntarily' get one. How clever. How Double Think.
One last point - why should I have to have an ID card just so some sections of the population can buy booze? It's like saying everyone is a potential child abuser so we will put every child in Britain on a huge database so we can check up on them when we need to. Oh yeah - they have already done that it's called Contactpoint.
Lord Brett said, "A lot of opposition to the cards has been based on fear from misconception and mischievousness."
Does this “misconception and mischievousness” include opposition to the ID Card scheme from the Government’s own Gateway Review, the head of the Crown Prosecution Service, the Information Commissioner, a former Attorney General, a former head of MI5 (Dame Stella Rimington) , the International Commission of Jurists, the Joseph Rowntree Reform Trust Ltd, eminent law experts, many Labour MPs, Conservative and Lib-Dem MPs and most well-informed people? Even former Home Secretary, David Blunkett, who first suggested ID Cards, now opposes the system. The Information Commissioner warned of us sleepwalking into a police state.
The “misconception and mischievousness” comes from the Government, who are still too busy spinning to listen to the people. The Gateway Review that Gordon Brown commissioned from Sir James Crosby laid out ten broad principles for a "consumer-driven universal ID assurance system". Some of these principles are: "Any scheme should be restricted to enabling citizens to assert their identity; The government should not be involved in the system; The amount of data stored should be minimised; Full biometric images (other than photographs) should not be kept; Citizens should "own" their entry; It should not be possible, except for national security, for any data to be shared without informed consent; There should be no database of personal details; The cards should be free". The Gateway Review concluded that the Home Office ID Card / NIR scheme BREAKS ALL TEN PRINCIPLES. Gordon Brown’s response was to attempt to block access to the results of the review, in defiance of the Information Commissioner and the InformationTribunal.
The reason why New Labour is so lovestruck by ID Cards, NIR, detention without trial, and the excessive snooping, recording, storing and tracking, is the influence of the civil service. Two groups of civil servants in Whitehall, the executives of the Identity and Passport Service and the Transformational Government team in the Cabinet Office, work for the implementation and expansion of the "National Identity Service". They brief ministers on the scheme. Other projects for the database-state and attacks on our freedom and privacy are being developed by other civil servants.
The ID Card scheme was for decades a Home Office civil service plan. Peter Lilley MP remembers it being offered to the Conservative Government "as the remedy for all our ills, from crime to shortage of kidney donors". The Conservatives resisted, but Labour obviously liked the increased control of the people. So it is no surprise that Alan Johnson and Lord Brett support ID Cards / NIR.
It is yet more spin to claim the cards will be voluntary. More and more conditions will become “designated”, like passports, bank accounts, job seeking, employment, benefits, insurance, etc., so that you cannot get them without an ID Card. Life will become almost impossible without an ID Card; then when enough people have been forced to buy one, the law to make them compulsory will be slipped through.
Does this “misconception and mischievousness” include opposition to the ID Card scheme from the Government’s own Gateway Review, the head of the Crown Prosecution Service, the Information Commissioner, a former Attorney General, a former head of MI5 (Dame Stella Rimington) , the International Commission of Jurists, the Joseph Rowntree Reform Trust Ltd, eminent law experts, many Labour MPs, Conservative and Lib-Dem MPs and most well-informed people? Even former Home Secretary, David Blunkett, who first suggested ID Cards, now opposes the system. The Information Commissioner warned of us sleepwalking into a police state.
The “misconception and mischievousness” comes from the Government, who are still too busy spinning to listen to the people. The Gateway Review that Gordon Brown commissioned from Sir James Crosby laid out ten broad principles for a "consumer-driven universal ID assurance system". Some of these principles are: "Any scheme should be restricted to enabling citizens to assert their identity; The government should not be involved in the system; The amount of data stored should be minimised; Full biometric images (other than photographs) should not be kept; Citizens should "own" their entry; It should not be possible, except for national security, for any data to be shared without informed consent; There should be no database of personal details; The cards should be free". The Gateway Review concluded that the Home Office ID Card / NIR scheme BREAKS ALL TEN PRINCIPLES. Gordon Brown’s response was to attempt to block access to the results of the review, in defiance of the Information Commissioner and the InformationTribunal.
The reason why New Labour is so lovestruck by ID Cards, NIR, detention without trial, and the excessive snooping, recording, storing and tracking, is the influence of the civil service. Two groups of civil servants in Whitehall, the executives of the Identity and Passport Service and the Transformational Government team in the Cabinet Office, work for the implementation and expansion of the "National Identity Service". They brief ministers on the scheme. Other projects for the database-state and attacks on our freedom and privacy are being developed by other civil servants.
The ID Card scheme was for decades a Home Office civil service plan. Peter Lilley MP remembers it being offered to the Conservative Government "as the remedy for all our ills, from crime to shortage of kidney donors". The Conservatives resisted, but Labour obviously liked the increased control of the people. So it is no surprise that Alan Johnson and Lord Brett support ID Cards / NIR.
It is yet more spin to claim the cards will be voluntary. More and more conditions will become “designated”, like passports, bank accounts, job seeking, employment, benefits, insurance, etc., so that you cannot get them without an ID Card. Life will become almost impossible without an ID Card; then when enough people have been forced to buy one, the law to make them compulsory will be slipped through.
Lord Brett? Have we no elected officials to push unwanted Government policies? These days we seem to be governed by unelected nobility: Lord Mandelson, Lord Brett, Baroness Royall, Lord Adonis, Lord Malloch-Brown, Lord Drayson, Baroness Scotland, Baroness Kinnock, Lord Sugar.
Can't our unelected Prime Minister find an MP to do his dirty work? Has Britain returned to the Middle Ages?
Can't our unelected Prime Minister find an MP to do his dirty work? Has Britain returned to the Middle Ages?
He said: "They will have all the information they need on one card. This will assist young people who want to buy cigarettes, alcohol, and in a city like Manchester with a lively nightlife, they can access clubs and bars while also having a document that protects against fraud and allows travel through Europe."
So now it's cool to drink and smoke is it? After all the governments attempts to curb these two activities with dire warnings about cancer and liver failure and drink driving and cost to the NHS and etc etc. Are they that desperate to foist this foul scheme upon the country that they are willing to tear up all their past policies in a panic ridden attempt to find somebody, anybody, for any reason to carry one? Yep, sure seems that wy.
It must also be remembered that once enrolled you are on it for life. No second thoughts or cooling off period. As soon as you have signed up then that's it, you must advise the government of the slightest change in your circumstances for ever, not just now or next week but also fifty years hence or face being fined. Add to that the fairy tale of biometrics and you begin to wonder as to just what this is all about.
So now it's cool to drink and smoke is it? After all the governments attempts to curb these two activities with dire warnings about cancer and liver failure and drink driving and cost to the NHS and etc etc. Are they that desperate to foist this foul scheme upon the country that they are willing to tear up all their past policies in a panic ridden attempt to find somebody, anybody, for any reason to carry one? Yep, sure seems that wy.
It must also be remembered that once enrolled you are on it for life. No second thoughts or cooling off period. As soon as you have signed up then that's it, you must advise the government of the slightest change in your circumstances for ever, not just now or next week but also fifty years hence or face being fined. Add to that the fairy tale of biometrics and you begin to wonder as to just what this is all about.
The sooner this is brought in the better say I,I have no intention of breaking any laws or commiting any crime,so I do not feel that this measure will infringe upon my civil rights in any way whatsoever,it is only those who intend to do any of these things that have got anything to worry about
bootty: living proof that there will always be "useful idiots" willing to swallow government rhetoric, and drag the rest of us along for the ride.... if we let them.
Batfink, Manchester (26/08/2009 at 16:12)