And the online forums are peppered with just such sentiments as proposals for a new points-based pathway to citizenship were announced by immigration minister Phil Woolas.
A new Home Office consultation paper - titled Earning the Right to Stay in the UK - signals that the would-be citizens of the future will have to work a little harder to become British. Migrants once they have worked here for five years automatically got the right to citizenship, but in the future they will spend five years as temporary residents, then become probationary citizens. In this next part of the citizenship game, points mean passports!
Points will be allocated for English language skills, qualifications, earning potential and also volunteering and civic activism. So if you campaign for a political party, become active in a trade union or even, perhaps, help with meals-on-wheels deliveries, you could become British quicker. But you could also lose points for demonstrating an 'active disregard for UK values'. The first problem, surely, would be defining 'UK values'. If, for instance, you asked a supporter of Plaid Cymru or the Scottish National Party about British values, you would be into an entirely different discussion.
It is odd that Britishness is so hard to define, because America - far more the immigrant nation - does have a very firm idea of its values; the benefit, perhaps, of having a written constitution and an insistence that all those disparate strands of the immigration nation pledge allegiance to the flag and the republic for which it stands.
But let's suppose that a probationary citizen chains himself to the railings at Downing Street pledging to fight to his dying breath for Sharia law in Britain - surely an 'active disregard for UK values'. Why would that man want to become a citizen of Britain, and why should Britain want him as one?
Tolerance
Our much-vaunted national characteristic of tolerance suggests we should allow this dissenter into the fold, even though he loathes everything this nation stands for. But in adding so dogmatic a voice to our citizenry, don't we dilute the tolerance we so prize?
These are enormously difficult questions, but there is surely room for common ground on certain points. For instance, surely a willingness to learn the English language is not too much to ask of our citizens. You cannot take any active role in society without understanding the national tongue.
As for the government's desire for 'active citizenship', is it wrong to speed up the applications of those most productively involved in society? Nations such as USA and Australia have always demanded more, in terms of commitment, from those who would be their citizens. And if citizenship is worth having, that is as it should be.
The future for Britain, as proposed by this government, is one where the 'Life In The UK' test will be beefed up so those new citizens will have to know much more about British politics and history.
You are bound to wonder how many people born in Britain, citizens by accident of birth, would be able to pass that test. How many of us home-grown Brits could also show the enthusiasm for community life the Home Office wants citizenship applicants to display? And if, as proposed, those applicants get points for being involved in political parties, is that such a bad thing when, at the last general election, more than one in three of us could not even be bothered to cast a vote?
All in all, the points-for-passports idea may mean that we end up importing better Britons than we can make for ourselves.
Farewell B of the Bang
SO farewell, B of the Bang. You promised to encapsulate the moment a sprinter leapt from the blocks, but instead symbolised a slow trudge to the scrap yard.
As the last of the 180 spikes were shorn from the sculpture beside Manchester City's stadium, the most ambitious attempt at public art in this city's history reached an ignominious conclusion. The really gloomy part of the story is that next time any big art project is mooted, the tendency will be to play it safe.
In practical terms, B of the Bang was a failure. The very least you expect of a sculpture is that bits do not drop off. But in aesthetic terms, it was the right artwork in the wrong place.
Even before its structural integrity was called into question, it was a masterpiece in the wrong place - a Mona Lisa in the downstairs loo.
At a busy road junction in a strikingly unlovely part of Manchester, it was there because the Commonwealth Games were there. But, in truth, the important part of the Games - the community spirit - was everywhere. How much better it would have been to put it where it would have had the proper visual impact... slap bang in the middle of Piccadilly, perhaps. Tweet
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why no mention mr taylor of the proposal that these people will be offered mentors to help them pass these tests and also show them how to claim benefits etc?
Very difficult to have any meaningful discussion about immigration as the standpoints are too binary. It is always portrayed as a tight rope argument, too trickly to maintain a middle path.
Pro Immigration - Pinko Lefty Liberal Tree Hugging Bearded Veggie.
Anti Immigration - Racist Fascist Nazi BNP, 3rd Reich Hate Thug.
I always tend to copy what other people do, eg What do the Australians & the French do? It works for them.....
its because Enoch was right - now I suppose I am a Racist Fascist Nazi BNP, 3rd Reich Hate Thug. Or am I just being sensible. And what about the so called "under-class", those that believe that they can sponge off the state for the rest of their lives. We cant deport them, they were born here. But we can make them "work" for their benefits.
Its not just about immigration, its about living in Britain. You either want to live and work here and abide by the principles of English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish values or you dont.
And that includes the right to worship whichever Supeme Being you hold to be the True God, but not to impose the by products of your beliefs on everyone else.
My Roman Catholic friends do not try and impose a contraception ban on everybody, my Jewish friends do not try and close England on a Saturday or ban me from eating pork, my Muslim friends do not try to make me fast during Ramadan. All live and work, and work hard, in a multi faith community with tolerance for each other.
The days of common sense and solid working class values have long gone and I mourn, with a heavy heart, their passing.
A prickly subject, but how many pro-immigration ministers/officials actually live in the areas where they locate the masses of new immigrants? Why are the new-comers always put in the working-class and poorer areas, away from the middle-class officials? Prickly indeed.
I agree with you PP from Ramsbottom. All I was expressing was that it's very difficult to speak up on the issue and have an opinion before someone labels you a) Commie b) Racsist depending on what side you take.
I'd say yes to immigration on a strict points basis. Points awarded for jobs we need and can't do. And BTW no dole, no social security, no NHS, no social housing for ANY immigrant until they have done 5 years here. Just like France, Russia, USA and Ireland. Have you ever had to see a doctor in Dublin "I'm from the UK and I want NHS" -"Very good sir! Now 80 Euros please plus prescription"....Also No Unemployment benefit for ANYONE under 30 unless they do a minimum 16 hours a week community service in a hospital (serving food / bed pans laundry) , old peoples home (ditto), road clearing, sweeping, lollypop persons, park clearing, weeding, wiping out town graffiti...
Yes you can come if we need you irrespective of where from and race, creed, colour, ethnicity, sex, sexual orientation and preference but there are rules of engagement until you have paid your dues. Once you've paid three years tax in your first five years, then you've earned your red, blue and white stripes.
Just the way I've been treated overseas. I had to submit to an AIDS test, chest Xray and an internal for 1 work permit and I'm a bloke. Talk about taking 1 for the team. Oh and by the way I was told, I could send the kids to a local school but would have to pay feews for them as they were foreign kids...
"It is odd that Britishness is so hard to define."
No it isn't Paul. Britiain is a relatively modern state, an artificial state, just 300 hundred years old. 1707 is when the separate Kingdom of Scotland and Kingdom of England came together as the United Kingdom of Great Britain.
Like all artificial states e.g Yugoslavia, most people retained their real national identities, apart from the Unionists who generally were the people in power and the intellectuals. So the idea of Britishness in large swathes of the population never took hold, and now is slowly disintegrating. The Union is a dead duck, onlt the Westminster politicians haven't grasped that fact yet.
The Scottish Government is a great success and will slowly and inexorably expand to take on more control and direct power. All that is needed now is a true English Parliament. Westminster can then get on with what's left, basically nothing.
The points idea is a pragmatic approach to migration control, only its probably about 30/40 years too late. The points system will probably only ever keep out thoss who really do want to make a go of it here. We have effetively always had an open door policy catering for what was the "Mighty Empire"& still is "our" Commonwealth. When we joined the EU in 1971 we ensured those doors were also open to any of our friends in the common market, reciprocal trading & open borders etc. What we didn't bank on was the EU opening its membership to half the scum of europe who descended on our welfare system like locusts. We also have the other caviat of asylum seekers, many of whom I am sure are deserving of our help but many seem to be a drain on the resources of what is rapidly becoming a 3rd world nation with all the intolerance, bigotry & fear that goes with it. Why would anyone want to come here????
Ironic how dismayed you feel when the subject of the immigration is linked Enoch over hyped blip statement. A comment which may have reflected the masses of England at the time. But sadly was derided as the bumbling fool by the political elite in both camps. May I remind you and everyone that as things stand in this beacon of failure called Policy for Immigration Control, nothing will be done As your aware the only pressure we have now is to divide UK permanent as these nations are defunct now thanks T Bliar and spread the mass immigration to each of these nations.
And BTW no dole, no social security, no NHS, no social housing for ANY immigrant until they have done 5 years here. Just like France, Russia, USA and Ireland - Blue Dude, Manchester
You have no idea what you are talking about. NO immigrant is entitled to any dole or social security benefits.
What if the child of a hardworking immigrant was about to die of something easily treatable like diabeties? not here for five years? Sorry love!
Paul Taylor is right about one thing - we really could import better Britons from abroad than we can make at home.