This all started with 9/11. Due to the fact that racial hatred at this time was needed by the government so that they could wage wars in Iraq and Afghanistan it was never dealt with. The problem now is that people are fed up with what they percieve as foriegners taking their jobs, of jobs being taken from the UK to other parts of the world,add that to the current economic downturn and peoples frustration at the state of the UK in general and what you have is what Hitler accomplished with the Jews. He blamed them for all Germany's problems, and now the british public are blaming non-british for all our problems. The only way to stop this is for politicians to start tackling crime more seriously, by stablising the economy and creating jobs, by raising taxes only when needed, by making government and public services streamlined and efficient, and by creating a fairer asylum and immigration policy. I'm off to the deep south of america soon. A place where segregation still exists. Without the political will i fear this is how the UK will end up, and sooner rather than later.

It's about time somebody told the truth about what life in Manchester is really like for anybody who is not an English yob.

Fahy's observations are correct but unfortunately there is very little he can do to influence the situation for the better.

It's going to become a real problem over the coming years as the legacy of the economic situation really takes hold. I suspect that it will lead to the the UK and the North West becoming increasingly economically segregated from the developing economies. In fact, it's been a self-perpetuating problem for years already.

I agree with 'Of Denton' : the only way for society (forget politicians) to address is through meaningful job creation. Of course, this applies to most social problems - so looks like we're going to be in a right mess.

I've also spent time in the southern US states: transient, economic, migrant workers; immigrant families; social deprivation; jobs losses; cultural ignorance and misunderstanding; political manipulation - all components of the formula for scape-goating vulnerable communities.

Yet again we hear about Mr Fahy's "passion" for policing Greater Manchester, being "fashionably dependant" on the race, colour, sexual orientation or religion of the VICTIM.

You've got to talk out "passionately" against "all" crimes Mr Fahy, otherwise the likes of you & the "white working class hating" middleclass media - provide succour to the wretched BNP. People who abuse Asian taxi drivers, Jewish people or Chinese takeaway workers - aren't "otherwise" good white people you know! These brainless yobs are out for any kind of trouble and affect us all. And why aren't your apathetic force catching them, anyway??

No now Mark... ""And why aren't your apathetic force catching them, anyway?? ""
Err round our way the Police are catching them. Try nipping down to your local Magistrates Court and watch the proceedings. See people - often the same people - up before the "beak" every day. Take the family - it's free and you can make a day of it!
It is a real eyeopener.
Otherwise, you have a very valid point about "People who abuse Asian taxi drivers, Jewish people or Chinese takeaway workers - aren't "otherwise" good white people you know! These brainless yobs are out for any kind of trouble and affect us all".
Becareful with the "you & the "white working class hating" middleclass media" - you are making class an issue when it shouldn't be.Classism is almost as bad as racism! Yes - Chief Cons are usually a little sort of Guardian reading touchie feely types - but hardly working class hating.
Having met Mr Fahy once or twice I have to say he is not a bad bloke - give him a chance - if you did an Obama and had a beer with him - I'm sure you would find you have much in common with him.

andy waytomakeacomment: "I agree with 'Of Denton' : the only way for society (forget politicians) to address is through meaningful job creation."

How would you go about creating meaningful jobs?

I have also spent time in the North and South of the United States and the overiding topic of conversation around the dinner table is immigration, that coupled with the price of 'gas', taxation and socialised health care. All of these other subjects seem to be somehow inextricably linked to immigrant workers.

The whole problem there (the US) very much like here, is that the situation is not understood in any meaningful way by the general public who - again like here - mostly get their 'information' from right wing tabloids and news channels (I use that term lightly) like Fox.

Nobody wants to hear that mass deportation is physically impossible and that even if it were the US economy would collapse overnight. Of course the scenario is very different here in the UK but mass deportation, as the BNP for example suggest, raises more problems than it could ever hope to solve. And I am not just talking about illegal immigrants, though by their very nature they are likely the hardest working and lowest paid sector of our society.

In my humble opinion the only way to tackle these problems, i.e. British xenophobia, is to take a whole new approach with a three or four generational timeline. Education is the key. That and ridding ourselves of this concept of 'britishness' - because that idea is merely a fantasy, as realistic as the 'American Dream'. There can be no such thing as a 'national identity'. We are not really a nation of shopkeepers, we never were. Nor are we or have we ever been the country as once described by, I think John Major, as one with vicars riding sit up and beg bicycles to the post village post office everday.

We are a nation, like every nation on the face of the earth, that is made up of hundreds of different cultures, creeds and religeons. And this is not new. Since pre Roman times, we are talking thousands of years here, this country has been made up of different cultures from across europe and asia. Don't historians say that the Welsh were the first true Britons? Weren't they a celtic people and didn't the celtic peoples migrare from central Asia? Where dioes that snippet of info fit into the nationalists agenda? The whole idea that there is some kind of original british race is flawed beyond belief.

Until we remember that the royal family is made up of Germanic and Greeks members, and that we were actually conquered by the Norman french in 1066, we will always have a society made up of loud mouthed bigots who have little or no idea of the way our country functions in the wider scheme of things. We are tiny island, without military allies we could probably be conquered by the Hari Krishnas, so if we don't want to go the way of Rome and it's glorious empire it is time we woke up to the fact that we must be more than the sum of our parts if we are to continue to have any useful roll on the world stage.

PS - I am not some lefty liberal either. it is just basic common sense.

The problem manifests from the fact that a great number of people are sick to death of the tidal wave of immigrants flowing into this country. The problem wont go away for sure. Time for politicians to wake up NOW.

@ Black Flag .....

Fair comment. Perhaps spurious of me to use a phrase such as "meaningful jobs", by which I'm having a slight dig at the gradual loss of manufacturing in 'favour' of the shift towards a service economy. Hope this clarifies.

Besides splitting hairs ;-) how would you contribute to this? Are there any types of employment that you would suggest should see the focus of investment ?

@ salfordrat ..... a wonderful post, thank you, I really enjoyed reading it. So many issues! Sometimes I wish that there was more awareness of the reality of the modern global economy and how that affects the make-up of nations, although perhaps that might raise further issues - ignorance being bliss (to some) and all that.

@ Min Gerr, Hulme .....

What facts are you using to back up your assertion of a "tidal wave of immigrants" ? I don't mean to be critical; I would just like to know.

Presumably you are sufficiently informed to make up your own mind, rather than be influenced by media and political propaganda?

No doubt you are aware that the UK, as the 4th/5th largest industrialised economy, and with an ageing population with a declining birth rate, requires a certain level of immigration. The challenge appears to be what criteria should be used to implement a more rigorous approach to immigration policy.

andy waytomakeacomment: "Perhaps spurious of me to use a phrase such as "meaningful jobs", by which I'm having a slight dig at the gradual loss of manufacturing in 'favour' of the shift towards a service economy."

What do you view as so great about manufacturing or so terrible about services which makes that a problematic situation?

"how would you contribute to this? Are there any types of employment that you would suggest should see the focus of investment?"

It depends what you mean by investment. If you mean government funding, then I don't think anything should be subsidised, because all that does is shift money to weak industries by taking it from strong industries, which in the long term is only going to be damaging.

I don't really understand the general obsession with jobs. The whole point of human progress is to increase efficiency so we produce more with less effort, so that we get more wealth and more leisure time to enjoy it. I think we need to work out how to cope with fewer jobs, rather than deliberately trying to create them.

However, if people really want to increase the number of jobs in the UK, the most effective way of doing it seems to be to reduce the use of domestically produced natural resources; so, stop all mining, quarrying and oil drilling in the UK immediately and you’ll get more jobs.

You cant and never will stop it. If any other country in the world was a haven for immigrants, as Britain is, it would have the same problems. This is why there are wars and conflicts that have been going on for thousands of years, all down to stupidity and ignorance.
Most violent or abusive crimes could be classed as hate crimes. Crime is crime. Why put this tag on it to make it seem worse when its actually bad enough as it is? White on black, black on white, white on white, black on black, whatever. Its all wrong. Its all crime.
Positive disrimination is actually a very negative thing.

A lot of people see "Immigration"As a invasion similar to what we fought two world wars for?We fought two wars for "Our" freedom,But what a lot of people really see is our way of life diminishing by the year.Racism is all over the planet from white to black to coffee coloured people,You will never stop it.And when you try and stop one race from being racist all it does is stoke the fires for that race.The way britain has controlled its problems is terrible they have allowed people to group in different ethnic groups which is very devisive.

andy waytomakeacomment, Greater Manchester

"What facts are you using to back up your assertion of a "tidal wave of immigrants" ? I don't mean to be critical; I would just like to know."

Well Andy, when I go to my local shopping centre I have trouble understanding what anyone is talking about for a start. Not because I am deaf obviously. Wonder what isolated place you live as to not see this. Maybe my degree in the "obvious" can see a bit clearer than the blinkered.

@ Black Flag ..... (At the risk of going slightly off-topic) re. manufacturing and the service economy ... my concern is that there is an imbalance in the make-up of the UK economy, rather than a preference for one aspect over another. I am not advocating a return to mass, heavy manufacturing (no chance in the face of international trade), but more championing of niche manufacturing, especially in science and technology. I feel this is the way forward for the UK economy. Perhaps I have too many hopes and I'm just being naive.

I agree with your view on government funding and long-term damage.
I think I share a concern about the nature or work. We have a system where some people work to fund those who don't/can't, and it seems the group not working will only increase. Perhaps attention needs to be given to how work is distributed? (Is that socialism?!)

Would you elaborate on your thesis that the reduction of domestically produced natural resources would be an effective way to increase jobs? How would the impact of importing these resources be offset? Or is this a suggestion of reducing domestic consumer consumption?

@ Min Gerr, Hulme ..... I am sorry you have that experience. It sounds like you take issue with how those of a different ethnic background may communicate with you, rather than their racial background, which I do appreciate. Personally, I enjoy the interaction with people from a variety of backgrounds; I'd rather mix with different people than continue the ghettoisation of cultural and ethnic communities. For what relevance it has, I live in "isolated" Salford most of the time and work allows me to travel on a regular basis. It's a lifestyle I appreciate since it helps open my eyes to the wider world.

Hate crimes are hardly just directed to immigrants are they. Race hate is directed at British born people, mainly those with non-white skins, sometimes the other way around. Religious hatred largely at Muslims and Jews regardless of nationality. Then there are homophobes, the misogynists...

Now we see here people trying to excuse this hatred which is pretty distasteful.

Still Eastenders having a gay Muslim character must be a bigot's worse nightmare :-)

andy waytomakeacomment: "Would you elaborate on your thesis that the reduction of domestically produced natural resources would be an effective way to increase jobs? How would the impact of importing these resources be offset?"

It's an effect known as the Resource Curse or Dutch Disease. In simple terms, in the long run, the value of imports have to equal the value of exports, so the more natural resources you import, the more goods and services you have to export in exchange. As more of the value of goods and services is in the work needed to produce them compared to natural resources, if you import more natural resources, you tend to have more jobs. It's part of the reason that countries with few natural resources, such as South Korea and Japan, have strong manufacturing and service sectors when compared to the oil rich states in the Middle East.

It is truly startling to find this board so unusually full of intelligent, well thought out comments. I have learned a lot today so thanks to all of the posters who have contributed something worthwhile. You know who you are. Still a bit confused about the old Resource Curse thingy but I will defiantely read up now that I have heard of the concept. Surely this should be what it is all about - the opportunity to learn from others who may actually know more than you do yourself. Suxh a pity that these boards are often full of mis-informed people who refuse to even consider that they might be wrong. I am sure we are all guilty of this, myself as much as anybody but I would hope that I try to remember that nothing is set in stone. I particularly like this, by andy waytomakeacomment, Greater Manchester:

No doubt you are aware that the UK, as the 4th/5th largest industrialised economy, and with an ageing population with a declining birth rate, requires a certain level of immigration. The challenge appears to be what criteria should be used to implement a more rigorous approach to immigration policy.

I am sure I will be mentioning that next time I am unfortunate enought to get into this debate. So, pats on the backs all round guys and thanks for the education :)

No, no Mr Fahy. In Manchester it is not hate crime levels that are 'worrying', it is crime level are worrying'. I don't spend much time in the UK now but evry time I come back I see that Manchester is getting worse. The whole anti-social behaviour is worse than people think but most have just got used to it. Sure in LA there are bad areas but in this country we are all together. Bad people are in all areas. At least in LA people are courteous and have manners.

I read today that Manchester has by far the worst burglary rate in the UK and it is rising. Better that the police focus on that and violent attacks rather than focussing on name calling. The police are obsessed with categorising etnicity. If I was beaten up by a black person, asian, chinese, German etc I wouldn't care what their motivation was just that I was beaten up (which is unlikely). Why question the motivation? Should be have 'jealousy crimes', 'just didn't like the look of him' crimes, 'inferiority complex' crimes etcetera?

Personally I am glad that I am out of most of the year. At least in LA one can properly protect oneself.

Pompous middle-class, etc.

salfordrat

The low birth rate and ageing population problem as been raised before, but I havn't seen any of the "send 'em home" brigade make any response, especially a proud and often stated benefit claimant who seems happy enough to take his largesse from the young, healthy and working now, but dosn't seem to give a fig as to thier prospects for health care or pensions in the future.

Giles, Voice of City Fans,

I spend a lot of time in Manchester, and dont spend any of it worrying about crime, despite being out and about most days and nights, things just don't seem as bad as the doom merchants would have us belive. Why a large group of people want us all cowering in fear of feral mobs I dont know. The yong people I come accross daily seem reasonable, if approached on a reasonable basis.

I have seen this reference to Manchester's burglary rate a few times here, odd that the MEN hasn't reported it, where is it publshed, and by who? A (very) quick google search had Nottingham as the place with residents most likely to be burgled, Manchester was 8th.

As to "'just didn't like the look of him' crimes", given the way black and asian young men are by far the most likely group to be the stopped by police and asked to explain themself without being involved in crime, its fair to say we already do I think

"If I was beaten up by a black person, asian, chinese, German etc I wouldn't care what their motivation was just that I was beaten up (which is unlikely). Why question the motivation?"

It may make it easier for the police to find the attacker if, for example, you mention that you attacker was German and the attack related to nationality.
As you say the likeyhood of attack is small, and this applies to most people in Manchester not engaged in acivity likely to make them a target of violence.

citycentre. try this:

'Central Manchester saw burglaries increase by eight per cent from 6,646 to 7,167 in the year to the end of March, amounting to 35 burglaries per 1,000 households.

Nottingham was second in the hotspot list with 33 per 1,000 households despite the overall number of break-ins in the city falling from 4,588 to 4,367.''

When I siad that it was unlikely that I would be attacked I wasn't referring to the statistical chance but the fact that nobody would try it with me. Last year (funnily enough at the back of the Courts) a thug approached me , ran up at a fast ace and demanded money'. I said 'no. you give me your money', he was seething but I saw him off swiftly by using pressure points.

@ salfordrat ..... Thank you for your kind and flattering comment. I've also noticed a high level of debate on other threads over the last few days. It's encouraging isn't it? I'm going to take a break from posting for a while (work commitments etc) and I have no doubt that the quality of debate will improve in that time ;-)

@ Black Flag ..... Thank you for the Resource Curse / Dutch Disease elaboration - I see I need to pick up a new economics text book!

Fahy would be better off getting more REAL police on the streets. Manchester has he biggest burglary rates in the UK yet police officers last January were taken off the streets in Trafford, sent to college to learn....wait for it.... Urdu!
Never mind more of Blunkett's ineffective 'bobbies' recruit proper police to do a police job and get our Urdu learning officers back on the beat.
Now if they want to learn it in their own time.......