Stores in c-charge battle

Amanda Crook

November 19, 2008

| Submit Comments | Comments (100) | Previous | Next

TWO of Manchester's biggest city centre stores are going head-to-head over plans for a congestion charge.

House of Fraser have claimed the massive transport investment would make the city centre 'the premier shopping destination in the north west'.

But the manager of Harvey Nichols said the deal would be 'disastrous' and push shoppers to Leeds and Liverpool.

It reflects a deep split in business opinion, with 225 employers speaking up in favour of the charge, and 275 signing up to the 'no' camp.

The M.E.N. reported yesterday how both the Co-Op and the TUC had joined the 'yes' campaign.

Jeff Johnson, general manager of House of Fraser, on Deansgate, said: "The massive transport improvements will bring huge economic benefits to Manchester and more specifically our shoppers and staff."

But Ian McKenzie, general manager of Harvey Nichols, said the congestion charge would be 'disastrous for shops and businesses across the region ... potentially costing thousands of jobs at the worst possible time'.

Greater Manchester's councils are bidding for more than £2.75bn to be ploughed into transport schemes, including £318m to set up a peak hour, weekday congestion charge.

Some £1.2bn of the total would be in the form of a loan, paid back over 30 years out of profits from the charge.

The result of the postal referendum, which starts at the end of this month, will be announced on December 12.

Click her to read the c-charge story so far.

Click here to read TIF documents released under the Freedom of Information Act.

Follow the Congestion charge debate live online.
Put your questions and comments to the panel and follow the debate with live streaming video at the aptly named Mancunian Way blog from 6pm on Wednesday, November 26. Click here .

| Submit Comments | Comments (100) | Previous | Next

Showing comments 1 to 25 and replies | View All

Alan , Stockport (19/11/2008 at 07:23)

The Co-op used the introduction of the congestion charge as a one of the reasons for relocating its call centre business outside of Manchester when the lease expires on the CIS building, in a recent internal policy document.......ethical maybe, honest? you decide.

PW, Manchester (19/11/2008 at 07:37)

Joe Public doesn't need big business to tell us how bad it's going to be for our city. We already know we won't be going into town, particularly when the con tax is expanded in terms of time dimensions.

Trumpetman21 (19/11/2008 at 08:09)

Sour times are ahead - is an extra 'tax on driving to work' the right way to go?

Vote NO - you know it makes sense.

Audenshaw Bob (19/11/2008 at 08:51)

How can introducing a charge for people travelling in make it more desirable to travel in and shop? If that's the case maybe House of Fraser should slap on a £5 charge to enter their store right now and surely people will be queing to get in if you follow their logic.

My parents live in Derbyshire and used to drive in, park at Kendals, have breakfats there and then go shopping, have lunch and sometimes go to the matinee at the Royal Exchange. My old man can't be bothered coming to Manchester anymore becuase he thinks the charge will come in so they now shop in Chester or Liverpool.

So how does House of Fraser think actually paying the tax will entice people back in.

I won't go to Kendals anymore now they ares upporting this tax.

I can't afford to pay it - simple as that. I I do have to pay it I will spend less. I only have so much. If £1250 goes on this tax then someone else loses my £1250.

Jay B, oldham (19/11/2008 at 08:55)

if its going to be so good for shoppers why will i be choosing not to shop there anymore?

leeds and liverpool have exactly the same quality shops.

they just wont penalise its people for going into the centre!

Sean Corker MART (19/11/2008 at 09:06)

I'm sure shoppers are looking forward to taking their bags of shopping home on a crowded bus / tram etc.

DO YOU WANT A CONGESTION CHARGE STEALTH TAX WAGE CUT? - vote AGAINST TIF. VOTE NO! (19/11/2008 at 09:14)

"the premier shopping destination"

= It only costs you £1920 a year to shop here!

Really enticing! I think not!

dessie, manchester (19/11/2008 at 09:14)

if the charge comes in then im sure most shops will up their prices because of transport costs and also a slump in sales purely because they wont be charged to drive their cars to other destinations.once you have been charged to get to the city centre ten its a matter of being charged to park there aswell!!!

VOTE NO 'U KNOW IT MAKES SENSE!!'

Jay B, oldham (19/11/2008 at 09:14)

they will sean. just from leeds and liverpool in the back of my car.

manchester obviously does not want my business

kendomat, Salford (19/11/2008 at 09:25)

Right I have heard the YES campaign say 'Transport will be improved'..

I want to hear specifics, specifically how its plans will be implemented in my area.. I could not care less about any where else, as would other people from other areas..

I live near Walkden.. Will the peak hour walkden trains get more carriages, and new trains. Most other routes see new/longer trains better servies. Stations from Walkden in see none of this, and I can hardly ever even get on the 730/8.00 from Walkden.

Will there be a bus lane implemented From Wardely through to Irlam Of the Hieght or the East Lancs?

Tell me what you are going to do TIF, specifically before I vote YES..

Im fed up of your 'open to interpretation' generalisations of what may or may not happen.

The only thing you seem certain of is the metrolink, of whic none touch this side of manchester..

I bet I dont hear much response, other than a politicians answer of dodging the questions..

Kevin Peel, Manchester (19/11/2008 at 09:27)

And here we go again! The no nuts roll out the usual lackies with the same old boring catchphrases and the mud will start to be slung back and forth. It's as simple as this - massive improvement to public transport and a charge to tackle congestion on the roads and clean our air will benefit EVERYONE. More people will be able to take public transport and there will be the capacity for them to do so. Less people wil use their car as they will have a reliable and clean alternative. Our air will be cleaner, our children will be healthier and our local economy will be boosted with billions in new investment because the city and outlying towns will be more accessible.

I'm closing this window down after this comment as I'm so tired of the tirade that follows. Lets leave it by saying that we are right and you are wrong - get over it!

Audenshaw Bob (19/11/2008 at 09:30)

I never eecieved the document that was supposedly send out as is the same with many other people but I saw something yesterday that showed the Metrolink extension through TIF - it is hardly anything. 80% of the new extensions are happening anyway the document clearly shows it. I was shocked to be honest.

I thought the TIF was going to mean Metrolinks eveywhere, flashy new trains etc but it's not much more that we have already.

kendomat, Salford (19/11/2008 at 09:30)

I have looked at the GM transport website.. But it looks like they just want to flood Salford with busses.. They have to have a clear route to go, otherwise in stead of the 6 busses an hour turning up, all 12 will turn up at once...

And from what I read, most of what they say is in some sort of affect now..

This type of bidding will encourage bus companies to ditch the less favourable routes and only go for the TIF funded routes.

which is why First, Stagecoach are plugging this.. Not for our benefit, but for the gauranteed income for their pockets TIF will make.

Rt Hon Dr Rev MC Spanner MP QC FCA FRICS JP OK (19/11/2008 at 09:31)

"I'm sure shoppers are looking forward to taking their bags of shopping home on a crowded bus / tram etc"

Sean,

They would do if there were any staff in these shops that could afford to earn £6.20 an hour and pay the charge.

I am glad that HoF are looking forward to eased congestion in their aisles

Kevin Peel, Manchester (19/11/2008 at 09:33)

Actually one last comment in response to kendomat - here is what you specifically will get in Walkden -

--More carriages on peak morning time trains

--Refurbishments to Walkden station - new seating, improved lighting, CCTV and real time travel information

--A rapid bus route linking Irlam o' th' Heights with the city centre

I'm sure you still won't be satisfied but you can't say you aren't getting anything.

Albert J Beancounter, At Home (19/11/2008 at 09:34)

I believe that the surrounding towns partly support the bid because of the deterrent effect of travelling into the city centre.
A town like Ashton under Lyne is re-inventing itself as a shopping destination and there is very little need to travel into the city apart from "a day out". Also with on-line shopping, even a small deterrent is going to cost retailers based in the charging zone.

Polky (19/11/2008 at 09:38)

"I'm closing this window down after this comment as I'm so tired of the tirade that follows. Lets leave it by saying that we are right and you are wrong - get over it! "

Do you think he meant it?

I bet he comments again later :-)

CityCntr (19/11/2008 at 09:46)

And here we go again! The no nuts roll out the usual lackies with the same old boring catchphrases

THE SAME YES NUTS ROLL OUT THE USUAL LACKIES WITH THE SAME OLD BORING CATCHPHRASES

and the mud will start to be slung back and forth. It's as simple as this -

massive improvement to public transport and a charge to tackle congestion on the roads and clean our air will benefit EVERYONE.

TALKING OF CATCHPHRASES!!!!!

More people will be able to take public transport and there will be the capacity for them to do so. Less people wil use their car as they will have a reliable and clean alternative. Our air will be cleaner, our children will be healthier and our local economy will be boosted with billions in new investment because the city and outlying towns will be more accessible.

HAHAHAHAHA.... THIS GUY LIVES IN FAIRY LAND!

I'm closing this window down after this comment as I'm so tired of the tirade that follows.

IDOUBT THAT VERY MUCH, BUT IF ITS TRUE, BYE. YOU WILL NO DOUBT BE BACK ON HERE WHEN THEY EVENTUALLY ARE FORCED TO COME UP WITH THIS ILLUSIVE PLAN B.

Lets leave it by saying that we are right and you are wrong - get over it!

WE WILL SEE AFTER THE VOTE, I AM NOT SO ARROGANT TO SAY I AM SURE OF A NO VOTE, BUT IT IS LOOKING MORE AND MORE LIKELY.

Kevin Peel, Manchester

THANK GOODNESS WE WONT BE SEEING THIS CONTRIBUTER ON HERE AGAIN..... OR WILL WE?

Trumpetman21 (19/11/2008 at 09:47)

"And here we go again! The no nuts roll out the usual lackies with the same old boring catchphrases and the mud will start to be slung back and forth. It's as simple as this - massive improvement to public transport and a charge to tackle congestion on the roads and clean our air will benefit EVERYONE. More people will be able to take public transport and there will be the capacity for them to do so. Less people wil use their car as they will have a reliable and clean alternative. Our air will be cleaner, our children will be healthier and our local economy will be boosted with billions in new investment because the city and outlying towns will be more accessible."

Evidence please!

Alan Kelly (19/11/2008 at 09:59)

Kevin Peel...I have no doubt that if you disappear in that name you'll just come back on as John Berta or Michael Moulding!

Audenshaw Bob (19/11/2008 at 10:04)

It will benefit EVERYONE will it? Well how will it benefit me by taking £1250 out of my pocket? If I have to pay then that £1250 won't be spent in bars, restaurants and shops in twon like it is now. Instead I will keep my £1250 because my employer is moving out and I will just not bother going in - simple as that. I can buy the same things elsewhere so I will.

Also as for more carrieges on the trains and Metrolink greta. In the mornings the trams are packed so double the carriages will be great won't it? Except that due to the tax more people will use then trams so the carrieges will still be packed.

I think some on here see this Utopia of travelling carrieges where there is space for all.

How can people be so naive.

I will not come to town again so how does that help businesses?

Albert J Beancounter, At Home (19/11/2008 at 10:05)

Quote:

"Our air will be cleaner"

Average CO2 bus pasenger 104mg/klm

Average for a Toyota Prius 104kg/klm

Three passengers in the Prius
and the car is four times cleaner.

Bus stat based on a London bus, as these are regulated, unlike Manchester where private companies do not have to give the information.

Polky (19/11/2008 at 10:12)

Dear Pro TiF people.

I posted this on the Con Charge story of yesterday and didn't receive and answer, so here I go again.

They say it has to be 80% complete before the charge, which means that 20% will NOT be complete (see how my brain works!)

If you go to Figure 24 in chapter 6 of the bid, you can see the parts of the bid which fall into this 20%. They are:

Metrolink to Oldham and Airport.

Metrolink - Second city crossing and Trafford Centre.

Outer areas bus packages (This includes all conurbations o Greater Manchester).

and Regional centre bus interchanges.

Later in the document you will see that these items MAY NOT go ahead if anything else runs over budget. Can you please tell me why I should believe that TiF won’t go over budget and that any of the above is going to happen, as it’s plainly not guaranteed when you read proposal and NOT the spin.

AlexisV (19/11/2008 at 10:40)

Oh dear, looks like Kevin is admitting he's running away from the inevitable backlash.

I personally don't agree with you, but I like to think I'm above the playground "I'm right and your wrong nah nah nah nah nah" attitude.

Shark Sandwich, Heaton Moor (19/11/2008 at 10:41)

Kevin, You did ask:
"Please do tell us about these glorious alternatvies? How do you plan to fund massive investment in public transport, tackle congestion and improve air quality?"

All the 'no' websites have alternatives and most individual posters on here have put forward ideas, often as part of the reason they are against the proposal.

We all want a good PT system but basically if the 'no' vote is like mw, we're saying - not at any cost.

The cost is too high. I'd suggest:

The M60 is crossed by a plethera of heavy rail lines, why not build a few multi-story car parks and we have a cheap instant park and ride.

Picadilly is congested (note TIF does not address this limiting factor) why not build platforms a little further out and have a mono-rail / light shuttle which shuttles to the main station and city centre. Again, link this to a inner-city park and ride. (essentially all big airports do this)

Why not make bus lanes open to cars with more than one passenger?

Why not remove redudent bus lanes?

Why not remove dead ends and help traffic flows?

If the govt really wanted to improve emissions it would remove VAT from car parts and servicing.

These are easy and reletively cheap wins, no need to allocate 3/4 billion to road pricing which does not add a single bus, train, plane, piece of tarmac or tram to the transport system. No need for some huge admin processs or high salaried jobs for jumped up town clerks.

()

Report

News