STEAM trains could be used for commuter services if the congestion charge is introduced.
The picturesque East Lancashire Railway - run by volunteers - currently uses historic locomotives in a heritage service between Bury, Rawtenstall and Heywood.
Now, a new transport package might mean the line being used to run passengers to Manchester city centre.
Transport bosses have confirmed vintage steam and diesel locomotives could be used to ferry passengers to Manchester alongside modern trains.
It would be a look back to the days when thousands travelled between the suburbs and the city on steam trains.
Options
The ELR plan is one of a trio of options aimed at easing traffic between Ramsbottom and Bury. The changes would be paid for with money from the Local Transport Plan - on condition the referendum on Greater Manchester's TIF bid returned a `yes' vote.
The other options being considered in the event of a `yes' vote involve extending trams to Rawtenstall or Ramsbottom, also using the East Lancashire Railway's line.
The ELR first opened in 1846 to link the Manchester to Bolton line with Radcliffe. It served the Irwell Valley from Bury, via Ramsbottom, to Rossendale.
The last passengers travelled on the Bury to Rawtenstall section in 1972. But, backed by Bury and Rossendale councils, it was restored and reopened by the East Lancashire Railway Preservation Society in 1991 and later extended to Heywood.
Currently, diesel trains and steam engines run at weekends, but during the summer, trains run much more regularly.
Members of the ELRPS have mixed views. Hugh McGovern, a volunteer liaison officer, said members had been reassured that in keeping with the line's heritage status, it would not be electrified if commuter trains were introduced.
Mr McGovern said: "There are two ways of looking at it. It will no longer be a heritage steam railway that we envisaged, but at the same time, the changes would help it survive.
"Leisure is the first thing to suffer in a recession and coal has practically doubled in price.
Support
"If this continued, we would find it very difficult to operate a steam railway, even though we have massive support.
"The downside would be we will no longer be in complete control over our heritage railway, which would hurt after the years of work we've put in. The beauty of the system now is that we are totally independent."
Mr McGovern added that volunteers had been told that of the ELR proposals went ahead, regular services could be `augmented' by ELR's stock, which includes the largest collection of privately-owned diesel locos in the country.
GMPTE TIF spokesman said: "There are a number of options being considered, including the East Lancashire Railway; a Metrolink extension from Rawtenstall via Bury to the city centre; or a Metrolink extension from Ramsbottom via Bury to the city centre.
"If the ELR proposals were taken forward it may see the use of ELR track or infrastructure - and although we don't think steam trains are the most effective way to get commuters into work, there may be occasions where this might happen.
"But it must be stressed we are at the start of the process and no details have been decided or agreed upon."
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Pentest 2, Hyde (14/11/2008 at 18:28)
Just Vote 'NO' and lets have done with it.
Rt Hon Dr Rev MC Spanner MP QC FCA FRICS JP OK (14/11/2008 at 19:06)
I MIGHT have chicken for tea, doesn't mean it's going to happen.
Kurt Stephens (15/11/2008 at 08:23)
Make no mistake, a No vote is a No vote for much needed transport improvements for decades to come, is that really how we want to move the region forward?
Mad Welsh Scotsman, Cadishead (15/11/2008 at 08:27)
Caped Crusader, Gotham City (15/11/2008 at 09:38)
At least the whole system won't grind to a halt when there's a power failure.
Pentest 2, Hyde (15/11/2008 at 09:54)
Kurt, do you want to bring manchester centre ecnomical doom, because thats what it would bring ...companies moving away, even further job losses, people avoiding, even boycotting Manchester centre as far as shopping is concerned.
And further more, you can't make a silk glove out of a sows ear, in other words, you don't go throughing good money after bad, and you certainly don't go into a massive debt, which future generations will have to pay off, and don't give me the excuse that the 'CON' chage would pay it of, because you know full well, thats a load of rubbish.
VOTE NO and get this stupid hair brained scheme dispatched to the rubbish bin, where it belongs. Before it cost us ...the local tax payers, more of our hard earned money.
Rt Hon Dr Rev MC Spanner MP QC FCA FRICS JP OK (15/11/2008 at 10:09)
There is no way I am voting yes on the basis that they might bring steam trains back. This is the sort of project that doesn't need to be in the proposal and if you take all of them out and run the scheme properly, there is no need for the C-Charge.
BUT
There is no extra funding this year if we don't agree to bee lab rats for this disgusting governement and I am quite comfortable with that. If this succeeds, what next? ID Cards, Inserting chips into babies, Pay as you throw for Rubbish. Manchester will become the centre for Labour testing. NO NO NO NO
PW, Manchester (15/11/2008 at 12:02)
-Soothsayer+ (15/11/2008 at 12:24)
We should run more steam train to promote our heritage and culture (the PC brigade allowing) and to promote tourism. We could even go back 'darn pit' to create more jobs.
-Soothsayer+ (15/11/2008 at 12:29)
It's just tough, if they want us all to be individual as opposed to nationalistic, then selfish me-me-me-ism will be the norm, hence people driving around on their own and creating congestion.
Mark,Radcliffe. (15/11/2008 at 12:30)
Retired, Wigan (15/11/2008 at 14:54)
john berta (15/11/2008 at 16:42)
Are you all being paid by Peel to sit by your internet waiting to rubbish the next positive TIF announcement?
There's something fishy, sorry, chicken going on here.
Anyway. Let me post these section's again. Read them carefully.
The ELR plan is one of a trio of options aimed at easing traffic between Ramsbottom and Bury. The changes would be paid for with money from the Local Transport Plan - on condition the referendum on Greater Manchester's TIF bid returned a `yes' vote.
"There are a number of options being considered, including the East Lancashire Railway; a Metrolink extension from Rawtenstall via Bury to the city centre; or a Metrolink extension from Ramsbottom via Bury to the city centre.
There you have it. Options being considered. Just because steam is mentioned it doesn't mean it will be steam.
Mr Ramsbottom. (cough!) For the last few weeks you've done nothing but moan because you won't get anything from TIF.(me, me, me)
I take it you might considering voting yes now because there's a good chance you will get a Metrolink extension from Ramsbottom to Manchester, or are you now going to move the goal posts and moan about something else to do with TIF?
I'm waiting with baited breath.
No doubt you lot will scream lies, etc.
Tell that to the People of East Manchester, Oldham, Rochdale, Wythenshawe, Chorlton, etc.
Then there's Trafford Park and that company that wants us all to drive to it's shopping centre. I'm sure overtime Stockport and other areas within Greater Manchester will also get Metrolink extensions. I won't even mention the lines that have already been built.
Vote YES! End of!
NS (15/11/2008 at 17:55)
A few days ago we were being told that Obama's people were looking at TiF as a model for the future.
You can just imagine the scene where they turn the page to find out that our 21st century transport revolution actually involves getting some 1950s carriages out of mothballs and have them pulled along by steam locos from the 30s.
Manchester is trying to portray itself as a dynamic 21st century city not one stuck in the steam age.
Chess Piece Face, Manchester (15/11/2008 at 18:35)
And Pentest, given the economic climate, how exactly is it sensible to vote No to thousands of new jobs in the transport and construction sectors, huge investment in our public infrastructure, capped public transport fares, discounts for low-waged workers, and the opportunity for many more people to save thousands of pounds a year by ditching their car and switching to public transport?
Henry Piggot-Smythe, Prestbury (16/11/2008 at 12:15)
Mark,Radcliffe. (16/11/2008 at 17:10)
jgp (16/11/2008 at 17:32)
Trumpetman21 (16/11/2008 at 19:38)
John Berta:
"Are you all being paid by Peel to sit by your internet waiting to rubbish the next positive TIF announcement?"
No - now who pays YOUR wages matey?
And while we're at it - who finances CAN? They seem to have gone quiet now Graham Stringer has turned the spotlight on them....
Rammylad (16/11/2008 at 20:24)
John, if you wish to go along with playground name calling then I guess I can not stop you, after all your are your own Man. I however would rather stick to the facts.
David Chaytor promised the train / tram link seven years ago in his push to be elected as Bury North MP. In seven years he has done nothing about public transport in Ramsbottom. However now, now that the council tax payers are going to foot the bill for this train link instead of the labour government, suddenly David Chaytor is talking himself up as the man who is doing something, he has now openly declared he is pro the con-charge. (See Bury Times online for article).
The reality is the journey will take ~20 minutes to Bury, then 10 minutes walk across town to the Tram then 35-40 minutes into town. I can do it in my car in 23 minutes without road works and buses fighting one another or 35 minutes with some council made obstruction. Why would I choose to to forgo seeing my two children in the morning and evening just because David Chaytor wants to use my money to by other people an old train which will achieve very very little.
Now, if you offered a direct, high speed link, say four carriges, not a stupid bumpy break your nexk with the jolting tram, then I would vote for David Chaytor, however I will never ever ever vote for a con-charge as it is an unfair tax on everybody except the rich and councillors and MP's.
John, did you know David Chaytor had promised this seven years ago? Do you know the issues regarding travelling from Rammy to Bury? Do you know the value of the ELR in terms of tourists and shoppers to Bury, Rammy, Summerseat and Rawtenstall? Do you know how hard the ELR have worked without government support to get that line and the engines running to the high standard they do? I suspect not otherwise we would not have seen another ill informed John Berta rant!
citycentre, manchester (16/11/2008 at 21:22)
"There you have it. Options being considered. Just because steam is mentioned it doesn't mean it will be steam. "
being considered? we have to vote in about 2 weeks, isnt it time the proposal was actually set down so we can consider it; rather than keep releasing ideas that are being considered?
i would like to know what i will actually be voting for
-Soothsayer+,
i agree, the answer to many current problems is to move away from the individual is king consumer greed driven culture that has been dominant for at least the last 30 years to a more society as a whole group ethic
by the way Isambard Kingdom Brunel was the son of a french immigrant
NS (16/11/2008 at 22:38)
Is that meant as some sort of ironic comment?
Anyway there is no suggestion in any of the TiF documents of the Metrolink being extended beyond Bury.
john smith (16/11/2008 at 23:48)
CityCntr (17/11/2008 at 08:15)
Mark,Radcliffe.,
Dont worry Mark, he has admitted on a different website that he isnt even on the elecoral role, so isnt able to vote. Your vote will count!
Mr Angry, Bury (17/11/2008 at 09:59)
Firstly, the ELR is Heavy rail, like Network Rail. The Metrolink is light rail, the two are NOT allowed to share the same tracks. If the Metrolink was to be extended to Ramsbottom or Rawtenstall it would have to use ELR tracks, which would have to be electrified and the ELR would cease to exist.
If this is part of the pro lobby's agenda it is yet another reason to vote no as it would destroy a superb heritage railway, achieved by years of hard work by dedicated volunteers. The restored stations would become shabby unstaffed tram stops and the locos and rolling stock would have to be sold and dispersed to other preservation sites around the country.
What benefit the Metrolink ever brought to the Manchester-Bury service has always been a mystery to me anyway. During all the years that I used it when it was run by BR, between the early 60s and late 80s, I never once failed to get a seat, it used to have six coaches in the rush hour, now by the time it reaches about Heaton Park or Bowker Vale it is completely crush loaded with no more room to squeeze anyone else in. Also, the BR electric trains were about 100 times more comfortable and nicer to travel on than the trams with their bad ride, hard seats and lack of legroom, you could also take bikes on the trains
What HAS been suggested, which is feasable is for Northern Rail to run TRAINS during the week, when the ELR is not operating, from Rawtenstall, via Bury and Heywood into Manchester Victoria, using Northern Rail diesel units, NOT ELR stock and nothing to do with Metrolink
This seems a sensible idea and will not impinge on the ELRs operations
I smell propaganda in this story and if it is a lame attempt to get a few yes votes from railway enthusiasts it will backfire spectacularly