C-charge showdown

David Ottewell

November 12, 2008

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THE Manchester Evening News is to host a two-hour showdown debate as the congestion charge battle reaches a climax.

Four key figures on either side of the divide will pit their wits against each other at the event on November 26.

Greater Manchester's 10 councils are jointly bidding for more than £2.75bn of investment from the government's Transport Innovation Fund, including £318m to set up a peak-hour, weekday-only congestion charge.

Of the total, £1.2bn would be in the form of a loan, paid back over 30 years out of profits from the charge.

The M.E.N has invited people at the heart of the debate to put their cases direct to our readers.

The full line-up of the panel - including MPs and senior campaigners - will be unveiled later this week.

Referendum

Our debate will come as ballot papers for the referendum hit doormats in homes across Greater Manchester.

People will be given a 12-page information leaflet together with a voting slip designed by independent election expert Sir Neil McIntosh.

The slip has a preamble referring to the the investment and charge, before asking: "Do you agree with the Transport Innovation Fund proposals?"

The vote will be carried out entirely by post, with results announced on December 12.

The bid can only go ahead if people in at least seven of Greater Manchester's 10 council areas vote 'yes'.

The M.E.N debate will start at 6pm in our offices in Scott Place, and will be televised on our sister TV station, Channel M.

If you wish to attend, please email debates@men-news. co.uk with your name and contact details.

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polkyb, Middleton (13/11/2008 at 07:49)

This 7/10 rule thing again... Neither AGMA or GMPTE can force a decenting council to implement this scheme, so, if Stockport say no, then they won't have it. That's why (until the AGMA voting rules were changes specifically for TiF) all ten councils had to be on board before any motion was passed.

Mr Angry, Bury (13/11/2008 at 08:10)

THe pro charge propaganda machine was out in force yesterday at Stockport station dishing out leaflets

dessie, manchester (13/11/2008 at 08:17)

all this debate stuff is probably a waste of time weve heard it so many times, the good and bad that probably most people know what they are gonna do!!!

Bean B4, manchester (13/11/2008 at 08:35)

I've had a leaflet through the door explaininmg when I won't pay.

I live inside the M60 but outside the intermediate ring (Hulme Hall Lane). I travel to work along Hulme Hall Lane then head out to south Manchester. So, I don't cross the ring as such, I just drive along it. I can't seem to find out if I'll be charged or not.

If anyone can answer could they please identify where they have had their information from.

Laura Norder, Didsbury (13/11/2008 at 08:41)

"THe pro charge propaganda machine was out in force yesterday at Stockport station dishing out leaflets" - Mr Angry, Bury

... which is why the 'YES' voters will triumph.

The selfish 'Me-Me' faction would rather sit on their backsides, spouting drivel on message boards, as opposed to getting 'out on the cobbles', to get their message across.

Still, it's another excuse for them to fall back on when Manchester gets the TIF's much-needed investment.

I'm sure I'll be seeing you at Parrs Wood High School, for tonight's meeting on the bid, won't I?

(Oooops! I fogot, Thursday is 'hair washing' night for the anti- mob.)

Pentest 2, Hyde (13/11/2008 at 08:46)

I'll be there Laura n summat or another, even if its just to listen to the comedy of drivel coming from you and the minority me me me yes camp.
By the way, if you hadn't already noticed, i belong to the majority no camp.
Just Vote 'NO' you know it make economical sense

Bean B4, manchester (13/11/2008 at 08:48)

Ah Laura the C Charge expert. id you read my question below your post? What is the answer?

If you don't know the answer why on earth are you so adamantly pro something you haven't got all the facts on?

Also, why are anti-charge people selfish. I can't see the connection.

Pentest 2, Hyde (13/11/2008 at 08:51)

... which is why the 'YES' voters will triumph.

The selfish 'Me-Me' faction would rather sit on their backsides, spouting drivel on message boards, as opposed to getting 'out on the cobbles', to get their message across.

Still, it's another excuse for them to fall back on when Manchester gets the TIF's much-needed investment.

I'm sure I'll be seeing you at Parrs Wood High School, for tonight's meeting on the bid, won't I?

(Oooops! I fogot, Thursday is 'hair washing' night for the anti- mob.)

Laura Norder, Didsbury

Just to show you we can all copy and paste, no doubt your small mind will do the same with my posting lol

A sensible vote will be a massive 'NO'

johnnyboy, Ashton-u-Lyne, Lancashire (13/11/2008 at 08:51)

VOTE NO I trust the debate will be about the merits of enforcing another tax on our local community and not the spurious blackmail case proposed by the rules of a game show competition from central government!

citycentre, manchester (13/11/2008 at 08:52)

"This 7/10 rule thing again... Neither AGMA or GMPTE can force a decenting council to implement this scheme, so, if Stockport say no, then they won't have it"

if that is the case why dont stockport, trafford and bury just say they wont do it, and save us a whole load of time and money?

Jay B, oldham (13/11/2008 at 09:15)

only the ususal abuse from laura! she cannot engage in serious debates!

thats all they can resort to now. that and spouting off the items given in the pro-poganda!

Alan Kelly (13/11/2008 at 09:19)

The Yes Camp Motto......I'll vote yes because someone else is paying!

And Laura calls the No camp selfish. How sublimely egotistic of you Laura. Try making a valid point!

Audenshaw Bob (13/11/2008 at 09:22)

I know of two companies just within the M60 that are really close to moving Warrington now. Even though the vote hasn't taken place they are considering moving now just in case the 'yes' gets through and industrial property prices increase in Warrington because of it.

Only 28 jobs but a few can't travel there so they will have to find another job in Stockport whilst someone close to Warrington takes their jobs.

Still the C- Charge is suppose top be bringing thousands of jobs to Manchester beacuse we will have new buses so they will be OK.

Rick D'alaglio (13/11/2008 at 09:28)

Citycentre - Not certain about Trafford or Bury, but Stockport's position is that they will oppose it as long as the majority of people in the borough are in opposition. The Council's own surveys and various independent polls have, to date, suggested that there is something like a 70-30 split against the proposal in the borough, but should the referendum vote in the borough come out the other way round (i.e. in favour of the proposal) then the Council will support it. There is, I suspect, very little chance of that.

I overheard something last week about a report which identified Stockport as being in the worst 15 congested towns/cities in the Country - does anyone on here know what that report was and where I could get hold of a copy?

polkyb, Middleton (13/11/2008 at 09:34)

"if that is the case why dont stockport, trafford and bury just say they wont do it, and save us a whole load of time and money? "

Don't know on that one, but, Stockport council have stated many times now that if the people of Stockport vote no, then it will NOT happen in Stockport. I have seen the same statement from Bolton and I have an email from a Rochdale MP (antitoll if you must know) stating the same thing, although in Rochdale he seemed to think that even if the electorate voted no, the Libs would still go ahead.. He gave reasons why he thought that, but Laura is reading this forum and the language isn't suitable for children.

Bean B4, manchester (13/11/2008 at 09:36)

So you pro-chargers, can anyone answer my question:

"I live inside the M60 but outside the intermediate ring (Hulme Hall Lane). I travel to work along Hulme Hall Lane then head out to south Manchester. So, I don't cross the ring as such, I just drive along it. I can't seem to find out if I'll be charged or not.

If anyone can answer could they please identify where they have had their information from."

Sick of this Government, MADchester (13/11/2008 at 09:53)

Bean B4, manchester, don't expect a reply from Munkey Boy or Laura Borer on your question, Munkey never answers and Laura...HE will just abuse you and the 'me me me brigade'

Alan Kelly (13/11/2008 at 10:07)

BeanB4...Although you may not be directly charged by the congestion scheme, you will be faced with increased prices and, when this fails, increases in your council tax.

Therefore, if you vote yes, whether or not you use public transport, drive a car, ride a pedal cycle, you will pay up to a full month's wages to GMPTA.

kendomat, Salford (13/11/2008 at 10:15)

What areas are able to vote, from the add on TV, it os only electoral roll GM residents, although this issue will affect many outside of this area who work in side the city, but live outside of the GM walls...

Its too risky for me to vote yes..

No definite charge plan, than can guaranteed for x years, and no definate plan of exactly who will benefi.

And by this i mean exactly where the busses will go, and the bus lanes.. Not just manchester will get more busses etc... The trams dont really even touch most of salford, and the trains are packed.. I hear no mention of my trains getting more carriages.

I am not voting yes to see South Manchester get all the transport initiantives, and north west manchester get f all..

Nothing to stop these corrupt money grabbing councils slowly increasing the charge price, adding an hour on each side of the peak times and like the parking in town (which used to be free after 12.30 on a Saturday), extending the C charge to a Saturday once its in..

Power breeds corruption. Total power breeds total corruption..

citycentre, manchester (13/11/2008 at 10:16)

polkyb

the published stories on the vote have tended to state that an overall yes vote, together with at elast a 7:3 majority in council areas would result in TIF going ahead
from what you say each council has a veto over the whole scheme.

can anyone clarify this, as the whole excersice seems pointless if stockport or trafford are set to stop the whole scheme anyway?

dessie, manchester (13/11/2008 at 10:24)

why should vehicle owners pay for something that we wont use?? we pay car tax we pay for parking, but people who use buses wont have to pay a penny unless its out of their council tax!! if there is a shortfall.
I think i would rather get in to work 10 mins later than normal than pay a £1,200 bill a year. The reason why there is congestion is because there are more and more bus lanes being painted for no reason at all!!!

kendomat, Salford (13/11/2008 at 10:38)

If 9 out of 10 people will not pay the charge.. It seems pointless having it...

I wounder how these figures came about..

I would like to see how many 'working' people this will affect.

Dont trust the councils.. have they ever done anything trust worthy when it comes to money.!!

polkyb, Middleton (13/11/2008 at 10:39)

"can anyone clarify this, as the whole excersice seems pointless if stockport or trafford are set to stop the whole scheme anyway? "

The reason I was given is simply this. Only Rochdale can make changes to Rochdales roads, like only Bolton can change Boltons roads. Manchester cannot force us to do what we don't want.

I'd also appreciate it if someone else could either put me straight or agree?

I know the anti car bill went through the commons last week; Does that change anything?

Jay B, oldham (13/11/2008 at 10:46)

Alan Kelly you also miss out the fact that currently the proposal says that if you drive out manchester in the morning and back in the evening you wont get charged initially.

but they haven't wrote off adding this on at a later date.

given that the shortfall in revenue collected wont cover the repayments

so then more of us will pay!

matt t, tameside (13/11/2008 at 10:48)

The public referendum was a hard won concession; if we vote yes and it goes ahead, we will not get another chance to vote if they subsequently decide to extend the charging zone, extend the hours of operation, increase the price, defer the completion of some improvements due to "rising costs" or change the exemptions.

Look at the story of the Humber Bridge for an example. Construction started in 1972, and it eventually opened late in 1981, on the basis that a toll would be used to recover the construction costs. Local residents were brought onside by a promise that this was only a temporary measure, and it would soon become free once the costs were recovered.

After 17 years, and some curious "refinancing arrangements", it is still a toll bridge.

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