TRAFFORD Centre visitors can't miss the massive posters featuring giant sharks and the warning that congestion charging will take a huge bite out of their wallets.
What isn't so clear are the people who want you to vote No at the referendum.
There are two groups campaigning against the charge and they're not the kind of individuals who would normally swim together.
One is the Greater Manchester Momentum Group, representing the views of 250 companies large and small, including the Trafford Centre's owners, Peel Holdings.
Then there's Manchester Against Road Tolls, led by Sean Corker, a guitar teacher from Urmston, who started his "people power" campaign after reading about congestion charging in the M.E.N.
The Momentum Group's steering committee comprises representatives from 10 businesses and trade bodies, including Peel, Hydes brewery, Kellogg's, Makro and the Federation of Small Businesses.
They want a thorough investigation of alternative schemes and say that businesses and employees would pay dearly for the Transport Innovation Fund.
Their budget is undisclosed but members are asked to make a donation in line with a percentage of the expense that would be incurred if congestion charging was introduced.
They also give up their time to lobby in their particular sphere of influence.
Communique, a public relations consultancy based off King Street, Manchester, is working for the Momentum Group and was originally hired during their campaign for a referendum.
Rachel Wood, who joined Communique from First Choice Holidays, won't reveal the thrust of the Momentum Group's forthcoming advertising push, but says that there will be one.
She justifies the Momentum Group's use of a menacing shark figure in campaigning.
"The idea is that congestion charging will take a bite out of your wages," she says. "The shark is a bit of fun."
Kellogg's made headlines when it emerged that employees were being urged to "cut and paste" comments from the stopthecharge.co.uk website into personal emails to the public consultation.
Wood says that Kellogg's employees have genuine concerns.
"These are big companies managing long term reputations," she adds.
"The group came together primarily due to concerns that the scheme proposed for Greater Manchester to secure TIF funding offered very poor value for money.
"Founder members were very concerned about the cost of the charge to employees.
"Due to the charging zone's size and focus on travel into and out of the city centre, the group still very firmly believes public transport will not be a practical, door-to-door alternative for many of the 440,000 people working inside the inner M60 area.
"To date, GMMG has met with more than 50 councillors, MPs and their advisors of all parties and views as well as talking to other businesses and customers. Above all, it has repeatedly sought to talk to the Association of Greater Manchester Authorities about the scheme and its impacts, but remains disappointed by the lack of response and willingness to get involved in any meaningful debate.
"The future campaign will also urge everyone to read all the information available and, above all, vote in December. It will focus solely on concerns about the bid not personalities or individual organisations."
The Federation of Small Businesses' Paul Henly denies suggestions that the Momentum Group has been dominated by Peel Holdings.
"In fact, it's been the other way around," he says. "We represent 6,000 businesses in and around Manchester and as many as 20,000 in the north west who will be affected by this.
Real consultation
"We have to stop this particular proposal in its tracks. A No vote at the referendum is the beginning of the story, not the end. We see that point as the start of the real consultation, not AGMA speaking only to people they know will say yes to congestion charging."
The No campaign has recently won the backing of a cross-party coalition of north west MPs, including Labour's Graham Stringer and Conservative Graham Brady, who describe the scheme as "insane".
Sean Corker has been leading the Manchester Against Road Tolls campaign since February last year.
Staffed by volunteers and supported financially by motorists' lobby group, the Association of British Drivers, MART's campaign has attracted more than 17,000 signatures against the road charge.
Corker, 39, MART's co-ordinator, says: "Although it might sound a little presumptuous to say so, MART's role is to be the voice of ordinary people."
He was refused permission for a MART stall at GMPTE's public consultation roadshows and calls for clarity about the source of the Yes campaign's fighting fund, as well as its scale.
He agrees that alternatives to the TIF scheme have not been fully explored and believes statistics used by AGMA to justify road charging were skewed in its favour.
The crux of MART's opposition is the financial burden that congestion charging would place on those motorists who can least afford it.
"Nor will this be the end of road charging," Corker adds. "The government is clear that TIF is about trialling a national road pricing scheme.
"Much is being made here of the fact that only one in 10 will pay on certain days, but how can we be sure that the TIF scheme here will not lead to further road pricing schemes. The TIF bid is only the beginning. It sets the scene for further charging here and elsewhere."
Manchester Against Road Tolls:
manchesterrtolltax.com; Greater Manchester Momentum Group:
stopthecharge.co.uk
Click here to read the story so far.
Click here to read TIF documents released under the Freedom of Information Act.
Click here to read David Ottewell's politics blog.
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Showing comments 1 to 25 and replies | View All
Pentest 2, Hyde (03/11/2008 at 07:47)
Rt Hon Dr Rev MC Spanner MP QC FCA FRICS JP OK (03/11/2008 at 09:01)
Says it all!!!
Rammylad (03/11/2008 at 09:05)
Chris Green, Chorlton-cum-Hardy (03/11/2008 at 09:42)
Manchester has the scope to increase the hours of operation, start charging in both directions and increasing the level of the charge.
Does anyone believe that they won't increase the remit of the scheme after they have secured approval during the poll?
Albert Bino (03/11/2008 at 09:56)
Trumpetman21 (03/11/2008 at 10:13)
Manchester has the scope to increase the hours of operation, start charging in both directions and increasing the level of the charge.
Does anyone believe that they won't increase the remit of the scheme after they have secured approval during the poll?"
Exactly the resaon why this should be voted against new month.
No guarantees = a No vote.
Jay B, oldham (03/11/2008 at 10:46)
manchester already has a pretty good public transport system.
voting no will not stop current funding on public transport.
the government where recently highlighted that they have never even started to fulfill their promises on public transport over the last 10 years.
so the government should pay up. yes i know that is probably never going to happen.
but hitting the people of manchester with another tax compared with the rest of the country will seriously damage our local economy.
yet it will boost surrounding places such as liverpool and leeds.
so maybe there is only one option. but the opposite!
NO!
Robb (MART - www.tamesidemart.co.uk), Audenshaw (03/11/2008 at 10:48)
There is no guarantee that these improvements will all be made. Almost all large scale government projects ecxeed the allocated budget and timescale, why is this scheme so different? When the money runs out which improvments will be cancelled? How will we pay back the TIF loan? What are the chances of AGMA and GMPTE answering the real concerns people have without refering to telling us (again) how the charge will (initialy) operate?
Rt Hon Dr Rev MC Spanner MP QC FCA FRICS JP OK (03/11/2008 at 11:04)
Albert Bino, I agree with you but that is no reason to tax those that have no choice indiscriminately. The lack of security is an issue and TIF doesn't really address that.
I also believe that these people just do not like to walk anywhere, wait in the cold etc so sonething needs to be done to address that. Decent Park & Ride schemes (not the rubbish in the TIF would get these people from House to Public Transport. Couple it with higher Parking charges in the City Centre and it is a more discriminate way of attacking the problem.
You would be surprised how many no votes would change to Yes if the TIF project was better thought out and addressed peoples needs. Richard Leese says there is no Plan B, yet the scheme has been adjusted week after week.
One of the largest concerns was not just the principle of charging but the extent of it. A more reasonable scheme would have changed the complexion of this vote but the AGMA are not going to budge.
How can you exempt HGVs from the charge and not cars? It's a nonsense
Munkey Boy (03/11/2008 at 11:14)
Kind of contradicting the fact the question you're being asked to vote on in the referendum includes the condition that charging wouldn't be introduced until 80% of the public transport improvements are carried out?
Polky (03/11/2008 at 11:46)
That means that there's a whole 20% that they don't NEED to do... Also, how would you define a percentage of a scheme like this..? is each tram 1%?
Albert Bino (03/11/2008 at 11:55)
Robb- fair point re overspend on projects, ambitious (to say the least) timescales and GMPTE’s lack of transparency. A 500mil contingency is quite substantial to cover projects that run over but yeah, I agree there should be more transparency and detail provided
MC Spanner- the extent of the scheme is massive but the fact it is only in the peak period in the direction of peak flow, as well as the cap on multiple passing means that it is not completely indiscriminate. Re: HGVs I don’t think they are exempt (they are not on the latest list). And yeah – if they were that would be madness.
Basically I don’t think the tif bid is perfect at all. But it is 100% better than doing nothing and keeping things as they are. It will affect people and people will have to change what they do e.g. make different arrangements, do things at different times, give some one a lift to share the cost etc. But the benefits are massive and would greatly improve moving around in Manc (and a strong manc is good for everyone in greater manc)
IanJ, Blackrod (03/11/2008 at 12:05)
No it's not. There are plenty of other low-cost options that GMPTE/AGMA refuse to even consider.
"Odds are that national road pricing will come in in 10-15 years anyway."
So let's just lie down and take another kicking then?
"And I think the list of improvements is definitely pretty impressive."
Depends on where you live/work. The improvements are seriously biased against certain boroughs.
"It will affect people and people will have to change what they do e.g. make different arrangements, do things at different times, give some one a lift to share the cost etc."
And for those who are not able to do that? Tough? That's what it boils down to.
Sir Reginald Ringpull, A-u-L, Lancashire (03/11/2008 at 12:28)
"would greatly improve moving around in Manc (and a strong manc is good for everyone in greater manc)"
Actually there have been no figures issued as to what improvents (if any) will occur if they introduce the scheme.
Traffic in the rush hour now travels at just over thirteen miles per hour and at other times at just over 17 MPH. Where the tram lines are to go will impinge on all other road traffic, from the 44 tonner (who is not being charged) to the yellow school bus and is bound to cause delays. If they had wanted a "world class transport system" why are there no mono-rails from the airport to the Rail and Bus station etc.
matt t, tameside (03/11/2008 at 13:02)
Bus passenger injured by rock
Six hurt as bus hits bollards
Arriva Trains axe 25 Stockport services from December
Yuletide train misery on the way
Tram derailed by bus
Cyclists steered to the suburbs
Oh well, maybe not...
Kiwi-blue, Christchurch NZ (03/11/2008 at 13:38)
IanJ, Blackrod (03/11/2008 at 13:50)
If only that's what was being proposed.
Kevin Peel, Manchester (03/11/2008 at 13:51)
Munkey Boy (03/11/2008 at 13:52)
Bus passenger injured by rock Six hurt as bus hits bollards Arriva Trains axe 25 Stockport services from December Yuletide train misery on the way Tram derailed by bus Cyclists steered to the suburbs
Oh well, maybe not..."
Good job no-one ever gets hurt in cars eh, matt t! Phew!
Polky (03/11/2008 at 13:53)
If you take inflation into account, it's the roughly the same amount, so, why threaten us with statements like "if we say no then there will be nothing for 30 years!"?
matt t, tameside (03/11/2008 at 14:10)
But cancelling trains will just encourage more people into their cars.
Still I thought Manchester is supposed to be so congested that the traffic is hardly moving, so at least they will all be low-speed collisions.
Lets hope the cyclists enjoy trying to get past all these extra buses too :-(
Trumpetman21 (03/11/2008 at 14:20)
That's all the yes side have got, vacuous talk of us 'missing out' if we don't hand a blank cheque over to local & national government.
No guarantees = a No vote.
Jay B, oldham (03/11/2008 at 14:24)
its just a big con.
"Odds are that national road pricing will come in in 10-15 years anyway" - albert bino
thats only if we put up with labour which i dont think we will much longer!
road pricing was all gordon browns idea and without him it will probably dissapear with him. tony blair discouraged him while he was prime minister.
why have the people of england not realised that he hates us. scotland gets everything on a plate and we all pay for it.
if you do not believe in gordon brown then vote no.
because to do so will show him what you think of all the taxes he's already imposed on us and the new ones he's trying to!
gone to the dogs, Cadishead (03/11/2008 at 14:39)
Irlam and Cadishead will receive NO benefit whatsoever IF the TIF bid goes through.
The vast amount of people in Irlam and Cadishead will continue to have no choice but to drive into work - and pay for the privilege - what a con! There will be no improvements and we will still have to endure the dreadful tailbacks on the 'Barton stretch' of the A57 caused solely by the unnecessary road narrowing and 'traffic calming measures' - a council-made problem!
I am so sick of self-serving and arrogant councillors and politicians who sit in their ivory towers with no grasp of reality.
This charge is neither wanted nor needed.
Kevin Peel, Manchester (03/11/2008 at 14:42)