Sleep row firemen win appeal

Paul Britton

August 16, 2007

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How the M.E.N reported the incident.

FIREFIGHTERS disciplined for sleeping on the floor instead of on £400 reclining chairs have had their punishments cut on appeal.

The M.E.N. revealed that Dave Adamson and Keith Hadley, both experienced officers at Bury, were accused of 'involvement in the use of unauthorised rest facilities'.

Green Watch commander Steve Wilcock was also accused as he was in charge.

Fire chiefs said they defied orders to use reclining chairs installed as a replacement for beds in Greater Manchester's 41 fire stations last year. The pair used gym mats and sleeping bags during a 15-hour night shift.

The Fire Brigades Union branded the case `bureaucracy gone barmy' after the three were punished following disciplinary hearings in June.

Mr Wilcock received a final written warning - a punishment one down from a dismissal. Both Mr Adamson and Mr Hadley received written warnings.

But now their punishments have been reduced after all three attended individual hearings in front of county fire officer Barry Dixon.

The active period of Mr Hadley's warning has been reduced from six months to three months, Mr Adamson's punishment was expunged and Mr Wilcock's final written warning was reduced to a written warning, now lasting three months.

Clarity

Fire bosses admitted there were `issues regarding the implementation and enforcement' of the controversial policy and a need for 'clarity'.

New internal guidance will be issued.

Mr Dixon said: "Having heard the appeals of those involved, I am satisfied they all understood the guidance issued and their individual responsibilities in relation to bringing in unauthorised rest facilities.

"I do however recognise that there are issues regarding the implementation and enforcement of the policy that not only affect these individuals but employees across the service.

"As a result I have lessened the disciplinary awards that were originally given. Recognising that clarity may be needed in some areas, comprehensive internal guidance will be issued shortly."

The FBU blasted the initial punishments given to the three as `outrageous'.

The fire service replaced all beds in its fire stations with the reclining chairs at a cost of £130,000 under a modernisation programme.

The M.E.N. revealed how firefighters were not allowed to use them until they had been given special health and safety training on how to sit on them.

An internal memo, issued last year, also gave new guidelines on how to rest at fire stations and warned of `random inspections' and threatened anyone caught out with disciplinary action.

The probe at Bury was launched after a 'performance review team' carried out a spot check at around 6.30am.

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Forward with Frank (16/08/2007 at 07:58)

Whay are they going to sleep anyway? Their wages come out of our council tax.

Lazy.

Jo14, Stockport (16/08/2007 at 08:41)

This is the most ridiculous thing I ever did hear. I thought that too when the story initially broke.

Why does it matter where they sleep - as long as they're rested enough to do their jobs!

ace, manchester (16/08/2007 at 10:11)

Hoe many jobs do you know where you get paid to sleep?Surely they should be wide awake while they are on duty.Could you imagine going to work and having a kip at your desk.I think the the firemen should be maintaining the machines etc while at work but not sleeping.

Forward with Frank (16/08/2007 at 10:18)

I know that they have a bit of downtime but if I was fast asleep, was then suddenly awoken by an alarm, but my clothes on in twenty seconds would I be safe driving a fire engine at sixty miles an hour through red lights within three minutes of walking up? No.

It is just lazy. When there aren't sleeping they are decorating people houses on the side.

They always say that it is such a dangerous job but if I was wearing hi tech fire resistant clothing and had a hose with hundreds of gallons of water in it I would think nothing of going into a burning building at all.

KT, Manchester (16/08/2007 at 10:58)

Unless you have been a firefighter then I don't think you can comment so freely. The job these people do is amazing and instead of passing critism we should praise them. I know if my house were on fire I would want a team of firefighters rested and ready to do their jobs. Have ever faced a burning person, child or deed body in you job, NO then you have no idea what couple hours of sleep in a bed can do to improve your mind. They Let them be, pencil pushers please stop being critical. The world we live in is far to critical and I for one am sick of it.

Forward with Frank (16/08/2007 at 11:33)

KT, yes I have whilst a serving officer in the Royal Marines 26 years ago in Kuwait.

I agree that they should be rested but not half asleep. It's downright dangerous.

Surely they should be resting out of work hours like everyone else? I am retired now but how would one of my 380 staff have felt if they saw me, the ownner and employer, asleep at my desk? I could always have said that I was just resting ahead of an important decision on their futures.

Hogwash I say to you.

The Catcher, In the Rye (16/08/2007 at 11:48)

As I said at the time, this must be the only job where you get paid to sleep - but I suppose they need a kip because most of them spend all day decorating. No wonder they have to retire early on an inflated pension - which I have to pay for.

Colin Morris, Droylsden (16/08/2007 at 13:47)

Some of these comments are incredible! Would you rather a firefighter on hour 14 of a 15 hour shift take to the roads having had no sleep? If they want to sleep on a chair, the floor or hanging by their ankles from the ceiling, it's fine with me. Maybe those who object could have the fire service tariff deducted from their council tax - and NOT have them respond should they ever need them.

Forward with Frank (16/08/2007 at 13:57)

Before I retired I regularly worked 15 hour days without sleeping and let me tell you I was hard at it all day and more often than not travelling all over the place.

Why do they need to sleep at work? Most other people rest/sleep outside of work i.e. when they get home. What's different about this lot? Is it that they spend the rest of the hours left in a day decorating? I must say they do a good job though and they let me buy my own materials.

ace, manchester (16/08/2007 at 14:06)

Colin Morris, Droylsden
You are not real mate i want to make sure that the firecrew who turn up are awake,I know firemen who have two jobs one in the day "building" and then they get to work and have a sleep.And you think this is acceptable? I know a couple of firemen who actually run a reinactment(dressed up as soldiers) company during the day and then go to work knackered.A fireman is a profession not just a job.

Amounderness Lad, Caithness (16/08/2007 at 15:58)

The whole thing was a nonsense from the start and should never have arisen. What does need sorting out is the 'performance review team', whatever one of those might be. It sounds like nothing more than the kind of "pretend job" normally advertised using that other silly title, "Outreach Co-ordinator.
If those at the head of the Fire Service do not trust the people they promote to do their jobs then that is due to their incompetence and they should go now and make room for people who can fulfil those duties properly.
And no, I am not a disgruntled Fireman etc., I have never had any connection with the Fire Service.

ilford, manchester (16/08/2007 at 16:10)

apart from the last comment it looks like the sun readers also read the MEN! strange how so many of you are experts on something you know nothing about.

ilford, manchester (16/08/2007 at 16:24)

To those of you who support our firefighters and have shown support via this forum i say well done,to those who believe they pay for a firefighters pension! when did you dream that one up? do you pay in excess of £200 per month for your pension? as firefighters do? and if a person can work in say an office during the day and then elsewhere at night such as a pub or restaurant then why shouldnt firefighters do the same when they are off? how many of you out there work 48 hours every time you go to work excluding overtime? 90% most 0f you work 35 hours,so before you criticise those who are there when you need them, think first before you open your mouths and look and sound as stupid as your comments sound.

RedPaddy (16/08/2007 at 16:32)

The more sleep a fireman gets the more awake he will be when called out.

If they are forced to stay awake for the whole shift then what?

I once asked at my fire station if they could give me a quote for decorating my bathroom and the head honcho in a white hat told me that they don't do that sort of thng so where have ye all got that idea from?

Lot's of raking up muck making if you ask me.

ace, manchester (16/08/2007 at 18:06)

RedPaddy
My ex father in law was a fireman and he did odd jobs during the day and he made quite a good living at it .

JudgeDred (16/08/2007 at 18:16)

At least when I go to work I work all day long.

Firemen, in my opinion, may out for an hour or so to put out a fire, then they are back at base playing cards or having a kip.

Is it right that fireman can use a tender to go to B&Q in to collect wallpaper and paste? Why should I pay my council tax for that.

Never had a fire in my life and proud.

BILL G, BURY (16/08/2007 at 20:13)

forward with rank, have you ever paid taxes probable not!do you work in the pmt team or fire service publicity spin department.you have never needed the fire service thats for sure or has a fireman ran away with your wife.jealous or what.

pongo, morayshire (16/08/2007 at 20:52)

Hi there...My comments are at the end of the day just personal comments but this issue dont you all think that there is more important things to worry about than a couple of guys sleeping on the floor for a couple of hours? Dont you also think that the tax payer is being "robbed" in paying a group of men just to go round station houses to "inspect" the fire-fighters? I take into account all the comments said yes I do think that if you are at a place of work you should not go to sleep, but if it said in your original contract you could and you have been doing the job for 20 or so years habits are hard to shack off. Also what i f the guys have been on a job for the last 10 or so hours say for instance a mill fire, would you really begrudge them a few hours? The comment on "fire resistant uniform, and gallons of water behind you" lets be sensible here there IS a lot more to it and I think you know that. The comment from the ex Royal Marine on sleep on the job I was in Helmand province with the marines and the rule of thumb is on ops say for 15hrs, no fighting, no force marches I quote "get the your heads down lads" now how many of you out there would argue with that? And finally if you could get a few hours sleep within your working day say after a night out, up with a sick child all night would you consider it and most of all take advantage of it, if the answer is yes then stop and think of these guys ok. And as I have said these are only MY personal thoughts.
Cheers jim

Dave Thorpe (16/08/2007 at 21:07)

yes as a firefighter i find it difficult to justify sleeping on nights. However, custom & practice has allowed it. Recently EU directives allow extended rest breaks on 15 hour night shifts. Most brigades have gone down the 12 hour night shift route and purchased £400 chairs.
Regarding Free pensions if you pay in 11% of your wage for 30years i`m sure your pension would be worth having too.

gato (16/08/2007 at 23:12)

My Dad was a Fireman and worked very hard to provide for his family, When he was on nights he was able to get a couple of hours kip and during the day ran a small property repair firm, When he was on days he left the firm in the capable hands of his employees, Other Firemen who were on the night shift including the station officer who was a good plumber. Now I think about it he should have been at home sleeping properly when not on duty Just like other shift workers do. Its time to change the rules.

LookingForLogic, Stockport (17/08/2007 at 00:43)

No doubt the money it cost to take it to this stage could have paid for another fire engine or some high tech extra kit at least! & I wonder who funded this whole charade.

Ho, Easter Island (17/08/2007 at 09:47)

Forward with Frank, you sound half asleep with your ridiculous comments.

This is another example of the fire bosses having a backlash against previously striking Firefighters.

They wanted to sack these firemen.

Read that again please.

Sack good firemen with numerous years of service, for kiping on the floor instead of a spring loaded chair. FACT.

Don't lets get away from this scandalous example of modern management.

Disgusting in fact.

I wonder what other crazy ideas they have had to 'modernise' the fire brigade?

The one where they reduced the number of fire crew on a tender- to save money- was especially worrying.

Saving money over saving life?

I would be tempted to launch an investigation into the bosses rather than the staff.

RedPaddy (17/08/2007 at 11:53)

Ho, you make a point about having less fireman on a tender but these these fires are smaller than they used to be so they need less fireman to put them out. See the National Audit Office statistics for fires. Also fire engines are more automatically these days.

They shouldn't be sleeping on the job. I used to work as a security guard and once had a few winks and woke up to find that someone had been in and taken all of the fax machines. I had to pretend that I had a blackout.

lh, manchester, north manchester (17/08/2007 at 12:18)

People seem to be forgetting that Firefighters do not just put out fires now, they also have to deal with car crashes, floods and automatic fire alarms which take up a lot of time, that's on top of putting up with the idiots who decide to deliberately start small fires in order to ambush and attack them.

During their day shifts they spend their time going to businesses and homes and fitting smoke alarms and giving safety advice as well as checking that the equipment they use is in full working order.

Most of them don't spend their night shift sleeping, for a start the chairs provided don't allow you to sleep for more than ten minutes as any slight movement pushes it back into an upright position, it's no wonder they are trying to rest on the floor. Nodoby has seemed to mention though that greater manchester is the only brigade to adopt this rule!

Ho, Easter Island (17/08/2007 at 13:09)

Red Paddy,WhilstI am sorry to hear about your narcolepsic fax raid, I fail to see the link between firemen not being allowed to rest on beds instead of spring loaded chairs.

In fact the point needs to be repeated, the bosses wanted to sack these firemen for being found with sleeping bags in their lockers.

It is vindictive management.

disgraceful.

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