Right to ban veils 'shocking'

March 20, 2007

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THE different types of veil...

NEW Government guidelines spelling out the right of headteachers to ban pupils from wearing religious dress such as the Islamic veil are "simply shocking", a British Muslim leader said today.

Education Secretary Alan Johnson has drawn up the updated guidance after a 12-year-old girl lost a legal battle to wear the full-face niqab in class in her Buckinghamshire school last month.

A spokesman for the Department for Education and Skills stressed that the Government was not imposing a blanket ban on veils at schools, and any decision on uniform policy was a matter for individual headteachers.

But Massoud Shadjareh, chairman of the Islamic Human Rights Commission, said he felt "dismayed" at the guidelines.

He said: "Successive ministers dealing with education issues have failed to give proper guidance when requested by human rights campaigners about schools' obligations regarding religious dress, including the head scarf, and other service delivery under human rights laws and norms.

"To now proceed to issue guidance against Muslim communities is simply shocking."

Guidelines

The new guidelines issued today will also warn schools they must not force parents to buy over-priced uniforms for their children.

The DFES spokesman said that headteachers have always been in a position to set their school's uniform policy, and this remains the case under the new guidelines.

The new document states that schools should consult widely with parents, governors and the local community on uniform policy relating to religious dress.

Where possible, they should try to tolerate a wide range of religious and cultural items of clothing.

But they may ban certain garments, such as the full-face veil, if it is felt that they impede safety, security or the ability to learn.

The DFES is not ordering or advising headteachers to ban the veil, but is confirming that they have the ability to do so if they wish, so long as they carry out proper consultation, the spokesman said.

Action

Headteachers will be told they will face action from the Office of Fair Trading if they impose unfair uniform policies on families.

The action follows concerns that pupils from poorer backgrounds could be forced out of the most ambitious and popular state schools by uniform arrangements which force parents to spend £200 to kit out their children.

Ministers want parents to be able to buy uniforms from cheaper high street retailers, not just shops which have exclusive deals with schools.

Last year complaints from parents prompted an OFT inquiry which found compulsory clothing which was only available through one shop could be far more expensive than supermarket uniforms.

DO you think headteachers should have the right to ban veils at school? Have your say.

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Ms D, Manchester (20/03/2007 at 11:45)

I am sick of hearing about this. Muslims moan when they don't feel they are integrating into society, yet keep their women and girls hidden in these ridiculous get-ups. By their very nature, these veils set them apart as different and communication with someone's face covered up is difficult. They have no place in modern British schools. If they are not happy, go to a faith school.

Chris, Irlam (20/03/2007 at 11:57)

Shocking? Why exactly? I couldn't wear what I wanted to at school and neither should anyone else expect to do so. A uniform is exactly that - a uniform.

Forever Blue (20/03/2007 at 12:31)

Other than the Muslim community I cannot see anyone else objecting to this. If my sons went into lessons with a hood up and a scarf across their face I would soon be getting a phone call at home! Joking aside I understand the religious side to this however the burka is clearly a barrier to learning and schools should be allowed to make their own policy.

Bill (20/03/2007 at 12:34)

I live in a country with a large Islamic population. I don't ever see women dressed like this when I go to Arab areas/villages. It seems like muslims only want to do this in Europe.

PW, Manchester (20/03/2007 at 12:59)

Ms D. How dare you pinch my comment! ;-) I'm sick of hearing about this as well. It's just an issue where certain people have a bee in their bonnet. I'm a muslim, I'm a muslim. Yes, we know, now go and get on with your life.

Ace Riley (20/03/2007 at 13:01)

Once again muslims excluding themselves by insisting that their way or no way?? People in britain are getting fed up with islam and the way its used for a section of society to get its own way,and control our way of life?

Andy, Bury (20/03/2007 at 13:45)

People in Manchester are getting fed up of Ace Riley!

Andy, Bury (20/03/2007 at 13:51)

I live in area where there is a fairly high percentage of Muslims and I've never suffered any problems due to my race or religion (or lack of it), but am apalled on an almost daily basis by the casual racism of my white colleagues. And increasingly that racism is taking the form of ill-informed diatribes against Islam because it's so easy to blur the lines between Muslim and Muslim, isn't it.

As for this issue I very, very rarely see Muslim women in a veil, and no girls at either of my kids' schools. It's really not an issue, although continued attempts to demonise Muslims will I'm sure lead to greater insularisation, polarisation and consequently a stronger desire to identify with faith.

Nice work.

bc1963, holland (20/03/2007 at 13:57)

What is the point of having a uniform????Everybody else has to stick to the rules,why do they have to be different?My children go to an international school,we do not have any problems at all.It has never been an issue.Why is it such big deal in England?What do you have to proof?I follow a religion,but do it in my own for walls.No problem.

Chris, Irlam (20/03/2007 at 14:24)

And the prize for most PC poster of the week goes to - Andy of Bury!

David,North Manchester (20/03/2007 at 14:33)

People are also getting fed up with people that defend muslims and certain other groups all the time.

Princess_Pam, Crumpsall (20/03/2007 at 14:43)

We should follow the French route and ban all religious symbolism from schools and end religious education classes.

School is the place for learning English, Arithmatec (not maths as a whole) and a little about History, geography and life in General. It is not a place to indoctrinate with one religion or another.

Unfortunately, some Islamic religious dress is used as a tool to show contempt for the rules. The fact that most muslims wear the Hijab but only very few insist on wearing a full face covering suggests they insist on being different.

When I was at school in the 70's the general doctrine for immigrants was Multi-racial integration, multiculturalism as led to separation. We should go back to the former.

If I went to live in any other non-English speaking country, the first thing I would do would be to enrol in a college to learn to speak the local language, then to learn to read and write in that language. But from day one I would accept local culture and tradition and try to integrate and become localised. I would not want to be the stereotypical Brit demanding that everybody did things the way we do them.

Religion has no place in any public building and we must not be funding this state of affairs.

Ban Religion from the classroom, and ban it from publicly owned places of employment, and that includes Christian as well as other religions. Save it for the churches, temples and synagogues, etc.

gazzo, salford (20/03/2007 at 14:47)

these people need to realise what country they are living in i dont mean to be racist but if they want to wear these things then they should go to the country of their faith and do it there if i walked round with my face covered i would probably be arrested and i have heard whether its true or not but if foreign women go to a muslim country they have to cover themselves up so is this one rule for one or what if we have to obey their rules in their country shouldnt the same be done here

Andy, Bury (20/03/2007 at 15:14)

I should point out that all these "PC" do-gooder type comments are water off the old back. It sure beats the lazy, ignorant vitriol which is just secondhand spew from the gutter press.

As an atheist I don't hold a candle for Muslims or any other faith, but I respect the rights of others to have and express their faith, unless it impinges on the rights of others. I don't agree with faith schools but strongly support RE lessons which teach (not promote) the tenets of the major religions. The ill informed mutterings of those that criticise Islam on the basis of a skewed news agenda certainly highlight the need.

And as I said before, why ll the fuss about the veil when so few choose to wear it. I guess it gives an excuse to go Muslim bashing once again but apart from that....? With such casual ignorance and bigotry floating about it's little wonder the neo-Nazis are making their presence felt again.

Andy, Bury (20/03/2007 at 15:17)

I would add that I'm no particular fan of the veil either. But the news attention it gathers and the vitriol that then follows is disturbing given, as I said, how few Muslim women wear it.

Go on, how often do YOU see the veil? And, therefore, why are you so excised by it?

Jo (20/03/2007 at 15:31)

So... it's not OK for a Muslim student to wear a veil, but it is OK for school assemblies to include prayers and hymns every day? I'm an atheist and I had Christianity shoved down my throat every day at school. If you're going to ban Muslim students from wearing veils or headscarves, that's fine by me, but if that's the case, we should also ban all other religious symbols in schools, which is already the case in France. What I object to is banning one religious symbol while celebrating others. There's no fairness or equality here.

Outside school, what does it matter what people choose to wear? People are reacting as if it's somehow threatening to British culture if British Muslims wear a veil or headscarf, but surely a key aspect of British culture is that everyone is free to wear what they want, whatever. Outside school, it is as much of an affront to individual freedom to ban someone from wearing a veil as it is to ban someone from wearing, say, a mini-skirt.

Ace Riley (20/03/2007 at 15:35)

Andy, Bury Whats your problem dont you like people having a differentb point of view than yourself? Youve enem put four replys to this story so you know what they say "People in glass houses should not throw stones mate"? I think in all honesty people are getting fed up with points of views like yours ?These people ARE using their religion and their beliefs to control a system that has worked for a good few hundred years."Its called conformaty"

Ms D, Manchester (20/03/2007 at 15:45)

I actually agree with JO. I too am an athiest and had to sit through hymns and prayers in school which I though was a load of clap trap ! All religion should be banned in state schools full stop. The veil should not be worn in a school where there is a uniform policy, it restricts communication and causes division at an age where teenagers and young people should be able to get along.

Andy, Bury (20/03/2007 at 15:55)

Ace, my problem is not when people have a different opinion than mine, it's when they can't be bothered to have an opinion of their own. You might be happy to rely on the ill informed or just plain misleading claptrap pumped out on this subject, but I am not. I've taken the time to look beyond the headlines and try and ensure I have a fuller understanding of the issues.

As for my posting record. Pot and kettle mate. You are ubiquitous here, although bizarrely whatever topic comes up somehow either the EU or immigrants - or both - are in your eyes to blame.

Jo (20/03/2007 at 15:56)

Andy from Bury - very well said. :-)

David,North Manchester (20/03/2007 at 16:57)

Its also about respect and integration ie,when in Rome etc. Muslims dont seem to respect the culture and ways of the countries that they make their home or are born into, thats one reason why they are not liked by the majorities and other minorities not just in this country but worldwide.

Andy, Bury (20/03/2007 at 17:07)

My kid goes to a CofE primary school where maybe 40% of the intake is Muslim. Those Muslim kids are surounded by Christian messages and are taken to the local church - where they have done Bible readings without any complaint. Their families send us Christmas cards. They knock balls around the streets in their England tops. They dress up for Halloween (which, of course is an American cultural influence but of course that doesn;t count).

Not integrating? I'd quote Jim Royle but this is a family newspaper.

Meanwhile the gutter press continually spout nonsense stories - proven to be untrue - about Christmas being banned etc. Following on from this seemingly deliberate agitation we see pigs heads being dumped at mosques, racial attacks on the rise, the BNP on the rise.... I know who I blame - and it ain't my Muslim neighbours.

marc (20/03/2007 at 17:37)

andy, bury - don't forget the fact that ace constantly talks about how rubbish this country is and yet, when it comes to muslims, they're trying to undermine a 'system that has worked for several hundred years'. personally i think that a veil can hinder the education of a child and so it should be removed. i also, like jo, hated having christianity shoved down my throat in school. religion has no place in schools. i've said it before and i'll probably say it again - ace is best ignored because if you respond to him you end up sinking down to his level because thats the only way you can communicate with him.

blueblood, Oldham (20/03/2007 at 17:52)

I see its gone quiet on the terrorist issue now lets see how can we stir up problems for the muslim community.I know lets go back to the boring veil issue. that should get everyone going and when thats over hopefully some more suspected terrorists will be unearthed. about the veil i dont agree with it but please can we get off the muslim stories

Snare Drum, Ashton-under-Lyne (20/03/2007 at 18:05)

So Jo which other religion enables the wearer to hide behind a religious symbol?

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