GREATER Manchester's new Chief Constable Michael Todd just loves surprises. The Essex boy who left school with no 'A' levels likes turning up unannounced to find out how things really are.

He's already done it twice at police stations on his patch and he promises the same no-pack-drill approach to the ethnic community. He believes in listening to the grass roots and thinks it is a human tragedy that social unrest, like that which gripped Oldham in the summer of 2001, can threaten to criminalise a whole generation.

He began his careers as a constable with just 'O' levels but when he found out that a degree would open the door to promotion - he got going, eventually ending up with the best honours degree in Politics in his year at Essex University.

The married man with twin boys and a girl became Assistant Chief Constable of Nottinghamshire and then moved to the Met during the Lawrence affair as deputy, then assistant commissioner.

Q. You are the first chief constable to take the new force oath that pledges all-inclusive policing for all sections of the community. Could you tell me how you are approaching the job of policing Greater Manchester's ethnic minorities?

A. I think it's very important that I am the first chief constable to take the new oath. There are some very important points in it about policing being all-inclusive. You ask me what is going to happen - lots is going to happen. But at first I want to listen. I do want to understand what communities are facing. I am not just going to spend time with the great and the good. For example I am going to the City Council to celebrate Islam Awareness Week and I think I am going to a mosque that same night. I want to listen at first because I think it would be extremely arrogant to just walk right in and say here's one I prepared earlier, though I do want to bring some elements of best practice that have worked elsewhere.

Q. You have had a lot of experience with London's Metropolitan Police Force. What are the differences in this force before and after the Stephen Lawrence murder and inquiry?

A. I joined the Met' during Lawrence but I had a reasonable knowledge of the Met' before Lawrence because I had a lot of friends working within it. I think one of the greatest advantages post Lawrence was that the Met' started listening to people and communities and trying to address their concerns. Take race hate crime and the decision to take race hate crime more seriously. If you had gone to a lot of police officers before Lawrence and asked about race hate crime they would have said: 'Well these are just minor offences'. I came asross this attitude many times. But minor criminal damages with racial motives happening time and time again makes the victim's life unbearable and is very serious. I led seminars in North West London and said you have to understand this new situation and that we have to change.

Q. A lot of people in the ethnic minority community see policemen making statements about change at equal policing but they suspect that underneath things remain the same - that the fine words are just window dressing.

A. There was a culture change in the Met'. People began to say fairness - whether it was towards ethnic minorities or homosexuals - was right. I and others had 'mystery shoppers', an integrity test. We were quite open about it. We wanted to say to police officers: 'We want you to have an open mind we want to take you along with us'. But we also used to say: 'If you don't move you might find yourself targeted in an integrity test'.

Q. How did that work with regard to rooting out racist attitudes?

A. We would have a group of people, not all police officers, we would recruit from colleges and so on and we told them: 'Please go into your local police station and report a particular crime and we will test out the response.

Q. Will you be doing the same thing in Greater Manchester?

A. I have not raised this with the professional service people but it's one of the things I believe in and I think it is quite important. In the Met we took the Police Federation with us so I would not just leap in up here. But I do think that the mystery shopper type of thing in important. Heart and minds of police officers is of course important but if you still have people who are lazy or recalcitrant it is crucial to make it clear they will be held to account.

Q. The thing that traumatised police and Asian community relations last year was the Oldham riots. If it's not too difficult a question what did you think about the riots at the time and what do you think about the situation now?

A. At the time I remember quite clearly thinking what's going to happen here in London. If you have seen things build up like a pressure cooker up here you know there are areas like that in London. I was asking what's going to happen in Hackney, in Tottenham, in Lambeth and I would like to think that huge investment after Lawrence Inquiry actually paid off. Seeing it happen up here was tragic - having that much damage done to a community is a real tragedy for everyone. I was well aware of it when I applied for the job. My concern now is that we have the right structures in place and the right critical incident training. I'm pleased to say we have a state of the art suit here where we do critical incident policing. I am going to Oldham shortly, but what I tend to do is just to turn up at police stations all over the place. I want to find out what our officers are dealing with, I want to go out with them see how things are. It's matter of proving leadership to the force.

Q. One thing that has been raised particularly by young Asians in Oldham is that they perceive the sentences given to those found guilty of offences during the riots as being very harsh. Comparisons have been made with Northern Ireland where it is said individuals get fines or short jail sentences for stone throwing during riots whereas those in Oldham have got up to five-and-a-half years jail. It's been said to me: 'One guy who went down was a university student who has never been in trouble before - why aren't people asking what made this student join in the riots?'

A. You beat me to it. The more interesting question is: 'What on earth made someone who has got some hope and investment in society riot in the first place?' And asking this kind of question is something you have to put in the police structure when tension is building up, to use to reduce that tension. I don't think there is any excuse for anyone rioting and the idea of burning down peoples' property may get some headlines, but it does not achieve anything. It's very difficult to comment on a particular sentence when you haven't seen or heard what the judges seen and heard or heard mitigation evidence. No-one wants buildings being burned down and you certainly don't want a young generation, whatever their ethnicity, being criminalised. They need to be more empowered to complain about housing about policing about opportunities and find a way of expressing their view without throwing stones and burning.